Said that, it makes me think.

How Thulsa Doom's symbology is so closely related to femenine images -(the Coatlicue, the oureboros)- (SET could probably be a female, as Coatlicue is, and almost every reptile or serpent entity in real historical PAGAN mythology). *

Meanwhile Conan's imagery is more related to masculine -(swords, phalic symbols)-.

It's clear that CTB is a movie for guys. In this topic, the movie is "male vs female".

Of course, Conan is not against females. He really loved Valeria. But he is against "false female": Thulsa Doom, who is a male but uses the power of female goddess. Another "false female" enemy could be incarned in the homosexual priest that Conan kills.

I'm not saying that Doom is gay. We don't know his sexuality but as far as we know, he is asexual. BUT he USES the femenine power of the earth and the serpent god Set -(that is the Earth itself). He claims to be a "Father" but he uses the power of the Mother goddess. He is essentially a LIAR, but a very good one. One that can make you think what the Truth is. But Conan, heh, he could not be fooled. He knew what a "real father" is, when he saw the symbol of his own one, the broken sword.

Somehow, the CTB movie is a definition of sexuality.

Because of course gay men are not "false" in any way. But this movie is not about political correct stuff, but a internal trip of a man who defines how his sexuality is. It's probably the reason why CTB was so powerful for us when we as teenagers are defining our heterosexual orientation.

(I guess you are heteros too, i'm just guessing)


See, Slaine is a more evolved kind of "barbarian", and it's no so weird when he wears the oureboros collar -the torque- which is a femenine power symbol. If you have read the comics, he is the "Horned God" who serves the Mother Goddess. The Horned God is a mixture of masculine and femenine, ying and yang, that is as I said, a Nietzschean Superhuman.

It's interesting because Slaine is a very masculine character, but as thereal historical celtic warriors were, his main god is a Goddess. Apparently, the ancient male celts used to marriage with women, as a contract. They had children with them, practice sex, and grow a farm. But they could have sex with other men if they desired it. Homosexuality, as in ancient Rome, was not a taboo. Only a matter of choice.

If we forget for a moment about modern prejudges or personal subjetive inclinations, we must remember that same way slavery and gladiator fights were accepted as "normal" and didn't became them into "evil persons", homosexual choices didn't turn them into "fags". Things were more pure in these ancient days.

In CTB movie, of course, the philosophy has modern parametres. Apparently, homosexuality is not normal. (Only the bad guys are). Of course we don't know if Subotai and Conan had something else in these nights they run from city to city. But we can guess they did not.

The important thing is not about who or what likes one to fuck with. The important thing is the definition of the role of the characters in sexuality. Conan decides to be like his father. A man who have sex with a woman and have children. Not like Thulsa Doom, who don't have natural children -or like his priests -who are homosexual-.

Probably the more classic male chauvinist philosophy of Milius' CTB is related to the idea of Conan still being young. And sure is also related to REH own vision of life, very male chauvinist, as he didn't really knew what a woman is. Sadly valeria died too soon... Conan would have learned sooo much from that amazing woman. Same thing with REH who could also have learned a lot from Novalyne Price Ellys. If Valeria would have lived, Conan would have had the same masculine energy and strenght, but combined with the sensitivines of his mate. Like Kull, for example, who combined REH masculine chauvinism and the sensitivines of a poet or an artist, but still in a very rough way. I am sure that if Milius would have developed the character Conan would have become something closer to Slaine, or to what Kull could have been if REH would have continued writting. A more complex and interesting motherfucker.

The Conan of Milius had a very interesting internal side. That's why I still like the character. Hope he finded Valeria when he died, in Crom's table.

For Valeria.








* I'm talking about the Milius' version, in Marvel comics Set is a male. Because the female "snake entitie" became male after the arrival of christianism. Then, the Serpent God was a incarnation of the Devil, who is male... That's why the marvel comics pictures Set as a male, because they don't know shit about pagan stuff. Shit, they even created a "heaven" and "hell" in the Hyborian world... Stupid shit. But you know, Marvel comics is not exactly too deep or faithful to reality in any way. Not interesting. For me, at least. I prefer the movie.

I don't think your too far off, Turd. Doom's cult also reminded me of the Cult of Dionysus/Bacchus ..which also features drink,drugs, music, dance and sex.

Theres plenty of music in the movie and even in-movie music with the chanting and singing, the Snake Tower Temple, Kitchen and Cauldron and then the possibly the Orgy, there mightve been some off-camera minstrels because you see some white robed priests running away on a upper level in the background in certain scenes when all hell breaks loose...also at during the orgy, Yasmina dances..

Some priestess of Dionysus were known for murdering people under the influence of mind altering substances..think as gruesome as tearing apart human bodies in murderous frenzies and orgies ect.

CONAN in this movie also has strong similarities to Hercules, who when as a infant crushed the two serpents sent by Hera to slay him . Hercules was also responsible for clearing the planet from monsters and even helped topple the Giants during their war with the gods. Both were also greedy men turned heroic saviors.

* In the script, Milius describes Conan's father as being like the metal forging god Vulcan himself.

PS

Doom's cult also had elements of the Scorpio in astrology. Which is the sign of Life, Death and Rebirth(aka Infinity). Also associated with sex and war, the gods Mars and Pluto. Also iron and Steel..this can explain Doom's mysterious attraction to Steel. Wolves are also associated with the Scorpion. Its the most powerful of the zodiac and very important in the occult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_%28astrology%29

Moreover, Milius original description for Thulsa Doom was dark, mysterious, masculine and yet sensual male(Sean Connery) that is very commanding whose mere presence conjures up sexuality. Doom's power of both men and women , his dominance of Conan's mother, as he tamed her wild side and nearly did in Conan the same way.

In astrology the number 8 is associated with the Scorpio, its the sign of infinity(again the Ouroboros).

*The Scorpion god was featured in the King Kull series..and was as old as powerful as Set the Serpent.

Hm, it's very interesting the topic of Dionissus, as it was a very important topic for Nietzsche. But you must remember, first of all, that the cult of Bacchus was demonized by catholicism and turned into a Satanist thing.

If Milius really wanted to follow Nietzsche, he would not have compared the cult of Set with a real Dionissus cult -Nietzsche said that Dionissus, even being "ugly", was far more powerful and interesting than his opposite, Apolo-. So, the real Dionissiac characters would be the heroes, as we can see them drunken like shit in the tavern, and living life as it comes.

But, it's true that as you say, "the orgy" is clearly a Dionissiac party. But Thulsa Doom is not enjoying it. He is in his zen posture, far beyond the pleasures of flesh. He probably gives that dionissiac parties to their followers to keep them happy. But I don't think that is his cup of tea.

Just see the eyes of the heroes, when they discover the orgy. "This is paradise", Subotai sais. They are clearly dionissiac in spirit. The three heroes also like sex, taking drugs and drinking wine.

Maybe you can describe the "Cult of Set" as a false Dionissiac cult, a disguise. Doom could look like a sensual man, but he is not. He has cold blood, and doesn't seem to feel desire for sex of any kind.

The physical apparence of the heroes, on the other hand, is more Apolinean than Dionissian. Specially, of course, Schwarzenegger who has the body of a greek statue.

But who would have like a hero with a big belly like Bacchus? The important thing is that Conan is dionissiac because he is driven by passion -(revenge and love). Meanwhile, Doom is Apolinean because he is driven by high and final ambitions -(becoming a god, controlling the world).

yes he a deliberate corruption ..Doom is ultimately the snake in the garden of Eden..he is a charlatan and Evil. * In the orgy chamber you see a garden with tree mosaic on the wall behind Doom's chair.


BTW turd, your right..Milius deliberately mixed up these different mythological/religious attributes, giving them to both Conan and Doom. Milius wanted Doom to be ambiguous, not a cardboard villain. Take for instance the lines Milius gave to Doom at the end, "For whom now is your father if it is not me. When I am gone you would never have been" ect



Here's the original writing 3rd Draft lines plus Conan's Voice Over:

Quote:

THULSA DOOM You would kill your father?

Quote:

CONAN(v.o.) He was right- the answer was not the blade but in the man.

Quote:

CONAN(v.o.) My father was the light of day-Thulsa Doom was my night.

The diying-resurrection thing is a very powerful symbol used in many cultures, and it's not literal -(not tales about zombies) - but a methaphor of coming of age. You know, "the boy dies, the man is born".

Also, when Conan is awake again, he is stronger than ever. And more concentrated than ever in his will: kill Motherfucker Doom.

So, when the hero dies, he methaphorically takes a trip to the underworld where he would get the information/magic weapon/strenght to kill his enemy.

When Conan first comes to kill Doom he is very silly. He goes alone, unamered, takes a imbecile disguise and shows everyone his stoled snake pendant. It's like he is so self confident, so proud of his strenght, than he believes that he can kill Doom alone. The prize of this idiot strategy is death.

Almost.

After his recovering, he is not an idiot anymore.

He goes with two other warriors, back door, hiden and prepared. Sword in hand.


And in a comparison with Doom, it's interesting how snakes have been allways related with longevity -(and even immortality)-. Why? Because they change their skin, being born again. Somehow it's the symbol of dying-resurrection again. It's clear now why Conan, afetr "dying and being born" again is now capable of confronting Doom, now they both are equals.


Also it's very interesting your comparison of the Father with Prometheus. Why do you say that? I would like to know more. Prometheus stoled the fire of Gods and gave it to the humans.

The "fire of the gods" it's knowledge, it's a secret they only know. Heh.

The secret of steel, only known by Giants and Gods, and taken by the cimmerians -who the Father incarnates essentially-.

They took the secret of steel and bring it to his people. that's why cimmerians are so powerful. Their weapons are stronger than any other, and their spiritual relation with their swords makes them become the toughest fuckers of the mountains.


As you say, "Father is the light, Doom is the night" of Conan... Doom is another character who looks to take the "secret of the gods", but his objetive is not bring it to his people like Prometheo, but keeping that power for himself.

Hercules burnt himself at the pyre and was reborn too. Interesting Conan was to have fought a lion in the Tower of the Serpent's garden, and kill it with his bare hands in the script. That could be another parallel again?!

One more thing on Apollo, he fought the great Python and killed it at Mount Parnassus, but was made to pay for this murderous act. Many myths and stories were conflated though, as some think that the Python and Typhon were conflated with eachother by contemporary people.

I have a feeling Belit/Valeria, was also modeled on the Roman goddess Bellona, this goddess was popular in post renaissances literature well into Shakespeare's Macbeth story. The name Valeria is even appropriate

Bellona's attribute is a sword and she is depicted wearing a helmet and armor, she armed with a sword. She came to battlefields and accompanied the dead to the underworld.

Valeria- means eternal youth and beauty.

Bellona with Athena whom was also an armed warrior goddess, and was a helper of many heroes, including Heracles, Jason, and Odysseus. Often Wings were one of her attributes.

The Valeria in the movie is a protector and does seem to associated with helping heroic warriors from death and resurrection herself. If you follow the CONAN THE DESTROYER script, you get a sense she's still watching over him.

Quote:

After Conan slays Dagoth and Malak stabs it again, we see something shining as bright as the Sun, as the camera falls backs, it's really Conan's Medallion glowing, then the awesome close triumphant shot of Conan. So Conan Medallion had a significant part, it seemed to Conan that Valeria was inside it kind of. Very interesting, but yet it was completely deleted in the film, replaced with the gold Wheel of Pain.

http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/conan-the-barbarian-f3/conan-the-destroyer-script-review-t682.htm

In the KING CONAN: CROWN OF IRON scripts, Valeria returns in the form of a look-a-like female, who at the end of the movie turns out to be really Valeria.



She definitely was a goddess, perhaps always was?

Actually is not known if Howard had intimate relationship with any other woman than Novalyne. Plus, they never had sex. She was her only known female friend, besides her mother. And his relationship with his mother was superior-inferior, something like he worshiped his mother as a goddess. Novalyne was the first one he could see as an equal.

There is a little comic strip in the darkhorse "Conan" comics called "Tales of Two-Gun-Bob" wich illustrates some texts from the letters he used to writte to his friends. In one of them he says he has been allways far away from girls since his childhood, because he wasn't interested in her world and they wasn't interested on his. Plus, he say that he allways finded fear in the eyes of the girls who looked at him. He declared not being a "ladys man". He used to watch how his friends started become interested in girls, and he continued writting and exploring his internal world of male warriors.

Novalyne was the first who was not afraid of him, and could even find him "cute" enough to get closer to him.

And, more concrete, his works are about males. Even though his female characters are allways warriors like Sonya or Belit -who are not too different from his male characters, but have tits- or stupid princess who can't do anything else but go into troubles, scream in horror, and be fucked after being rescued.

In the movie "The whole wide world" Novalyne is allways trying to take Bob to her side, but he keeps in his own, again and again. Novalyne is interested in topics he haven't even thinking about. She would have like to introduce him into the world, the social world, but he prefered to stay in his internal world, because he believed it was greater. Maybe that is the reason of the title of the movie, a man who is outside the world, but has inside of him another one, which is infinite.

But he was not open to the energy of a woman.

Maybe saying he was "male chauvinist" is not exact, because he didn't saw them as "inferior". But it's clear he was not into the female psyche at all. They were unknown for him.

Kenneth Turan's NEW WEST magazine article was pretty good, it also goes into Howard's ambiguous and contradicting mind and personality.

Maybe Milius saw the Atlantean King as Abe Lincoln? Both were phsycally abnormally tall as well.



This chamber was clearly modeled on Roman style catacombs:

Do you have any pic of some roman catacomb? That is really interesting.

I'll google something later on, but its quite clearly evident with that arch there.. which only derives from the Italian barrel vault and Roman engineering. Also can see the various columns, and standing postioned dead bodies, which is typical of Roman and even Christian era burials in those Catacombs.

Hail Caesar..Roma Victor!

This WW2 Nazi badge also has a Cobbian Thulsa Doom architecture quality:

You are absolutely right!





Do you know the meaning of the symbols? Or where was it from?




About the catacombs, yeah, it's clearly inspired by the romans as you said, with the arch. These are paleochristian:













But in these roman catacombs the corpses were lying horizontally, meanwhile in the atlantean they are standing vertically.




The atlantean tomb in the outside could be inspired by the megalithic tombs from the Neolithic. Sometimes they were placed over hills:
















Later came the Bronze-Iron ages tombs, a "mound" of sand or stones and under it was a subterranian chamber or cave. (The famous "kurgans", or the Celtic tombs for Kings, for example):















The interior was actually a great room, where the King was with all his most precious artifacts: cups, war chariots and weapons. These are real objects founded in celtic tombs of ancient kings. Notice the Stone Axe. (The atlantean King was buried also with objects and weapons, including an axe).










But there again we find the King lying in the floor, in a "sleeping" pose. Not like the atlantean, sitting in his throne.


What abou the Vikings, who Milius liked so much? Well, they are similar to the Celts. Also built artificial burial monds -(sometimes with stones)- and also used megalithic constructions over the tombs.









Again we find the King and a lot of food, and nice objects like his favourite sword and battleaxe. (Slaves where also sacrified to join the dead king in the tomb).











And again, we find the dead king lying on the floor. So, is there any real historical culture who sat their dead kings on a throne???

I think the seated King, is more Abe Lincoln inspired than anything else. The Washington DC monuments are specifically Freemasonry works, which use all the Roman and Egyptian designs..perhaps Milius was drawing on this same ouccultic/ ancient symbolism ideas and/or he's a Mason himself?! Knowing his fondness for American history and WW2, I highly doubt its all coincidental.

These too are clearly under the influece of that Nazi anti-partisan badge:

Turd, those tombs pre-date the Celts. Its possible they were later-used by Celtic speaking peoples when they arrived into those lands..but thats all.

The Tarxien Temples of Malta are also quite intriguing as well.

_______________

These vertical mummies are found in Palermo, Sicily:(They also remind me of the mummified Conan, which akiro works on, same hand positionings)