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 Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Fri 29 Aug - 21:39

Apparently, savage forest women related with wolves was a typical sthereotype, depicted in artworks from the early 20th century. There was also a Weird Tales cover featuring a naked woman running with wolves through the forest. If i'm not wrong that woman had red hair, a symbol of witchcraft in old times... It'c clearly a depiction of repressed sexuality in women as these same "women with wolves" imagery was later used as symbols of femenine liberation.

The "witch" allways have been a methaphor of the dark side of women, their manipulative side and destructive passionate feelings. Their hunger is well described in cannibal witchs like the same Witch-Wolf from Conan or the Baba-Yaga from ancient Russia.

This art comes from VIRGIL FINLAY, great pulp artist -who drawn Conan several times-.





In the artwork the woman is in front of some kind of forestal entity. It may look as the Christian Devil and no doubt any Victorian or Catholic mind would recognice it that way -as the WitchWolf in the Conan movie was depicted as evil- but the truth is that entity is the Green Man, a celtic ancient god of the animals who was married with the Mother Goddess abd fecunded her. Was a god of dead and regeneration, you know, a fertility god from ancient neolithic times. As any objective story about old witchcraft would explain these practices were nothing but a reaction to the obsessive repressions of the catholic church in ancient times.


In the movie "In company of Wolves" by Neil Jordan this topic is the main theme of the movie. Turning into a wolf and scape into the forest was some kind of sexual liberation methafor for the teen girl character.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Fri 29 Aug - 22:55

Its possible, although the wolf-witch is clearly a marvel comic character via Roy Thomas.

http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/conan-the-barbarian-f3/wolf-woman-wolf-witch-t840.htm

Stone's Wolf-Witch was a minion of Set kinda or atleast a some kinda in league with a evil devil waiting for the end of days.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 2:55

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

Stone's Wolf-Witch was a minion of Set kinda or atleast a some kinda in league with a evil devil waiting for the end of days.

Was the same scene of the hut, in Stone's script? And did she turned into a wolf, or a serpent, or something? How is she described? study





I don't think the direct inspiration was these wolf-women I talked about nor even the Finlay artwork, but I think the connection is real. The witch from the movie was also inspired by a lot of ancient times evil creatures, I listed some of them in the old "symbolism" thread if you remember. Guess the marvel comic was a direct refence, yes, though there the witch is friendly and Conan didn't ever touch her.

A lot of Conan comics featured nymphs and lamias, naked females in the forest seducing warriors and then turning into monsters who devour them. That is a very old story of folklore in almost every culture, from celts with these old green ladies who live underwater, to Greece with the lamias -half woman and half serpent- to the vampires we all know so well. There's also the succubbus, that incarnation of Satan in the body of a hottie who sucked your life having sex with you.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 3:48

Read the official script review, Turd. Long story short, yes there was hut and Stone scene is more extended. Its almost evil dead-like. Some kinda living wind at the door which scares Conan. I assume this was all very Lovecraftian.


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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 5:44

Hm, now I remember the main inspiration would be Bran Mac Morns' "Worms from the earth" of Bob Howard, there was a Witch, a hut, a barbarian and a fuck. Bran goes to see the Witch cuz he needs to find the Worms of the earth. She tells him that if he wants that info, first he must do some plumbing works for her. And he does!

The witch was half-snake, an hybrid of human and serpent-man. She was relative to the "Worms of the earth", same hybrids as her but they lived in caves and were evolutioned into blind soft scaled cannibals.

The movie "The Descent" has that same creatures -that movie was even placed in Scotland, as the Pictland of Bran. Also the Neanderthals of the Milius' Conan share some relation -humans who abandoned the light of the sun and came to live inside caves forever, INvolutioning into apes and turning cannibals.

That at least was the Trollish mongolian myth version of Subotai. Valeria, who studied anthopology in the Unversity of Poitain, knows the truth: They are just a separated species from us.

Quote :
"How could they thus have sunk to the level of beasts?" muttered the small Hyrkanian.

Valeria said: "From what I have heard, such is not the case. They are not men who have become animals, but animals who have almost grown to men. My people say that long, long ago there were two branches of man: our forebears and these shadow-dwellers. My ancestors called them that because these beast-men could not endure the light of day and chose to make their home in the hollows beneath the earth. When our forebears spread out across the land, seeking the daylight and the fertile earth, these shadow-dwellers burrowed ever deeper into the ground."

That tale of Bob Howard had a strong Lovecraftian touch, but Bran and the rest of the heroes of Howard didn't react as the characters of Lovecraft when confronting the unknow. Lovecraft's "heroes" they just got paralized in extreme panic and if they were lucky and not devoured -or worse- then they used to go crazy and ended their days writting idiot stuff in the walls of a mental institution over a pile of their own poo. Bob Howard's heroes felt a hyper strong repulsion that made them quickly find any object near them that could be thrown as a weapon right to the head of the Lovecraftian apparition-hybrid-unnamableshit. If the thingy had no head, they slashed it into the smallest pieces they could. If it was uncutable then they would spit to it and shout some barbaric insults, then finded the way of make them dissapear smashing the brains of the wizard who invited them all over the wall. Anything about agressive pscyhopatic reaction. Also, they never had mental problems after their encounters with the Unnamable because they weren't worried about the futility of existence and that shit about how little is Man compared with the horror and empitness of the Cosmos -they didn't give a fuck about that crap-.

Hm, both were very probably the reactions of both men in the possible conflict of life: Lovecraft got scared and used to run away from problems, Howard used to wanna destroy problems. Laughing In any case not too healthy way of confronting the "monsters"... Shit
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 7:11

Ah, so its a combo of Thomas' marvel storyline and that Bran story arc, thats interesting. I forget about Bran being some basis of the flick. Exchange "Worms of.." to "Snakes of..", same shit. Is there a full synopsis or online book of that story you know of. I never read any of the Bran serials.

Thomas wrote a script, perhaps his basis also formed some of Stones and they all fed off eachother?

*The Decent was taken place in North Carolina but filmed in Scotland, and most of if not all the stars were from the UK/Ireland or whatever, yeah. Crappy film though.

The dropping of the Neanderthals I think was a mistake, but may of been cause of lack of good make-up or he got cold feet and didnt like the pulpy aspect of it all?! He was very fickle & strange .

PS

There's a write up here on bran and the Picts..

http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/robertehoward/branmakmorn1.html
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 10:51

I have the book of all Bran stories in spanish, with a cover of Frazetta (Dark Kingdom) and also I know some pages were you can download the almost whole REH literary work but it's in spanish. I don't know any english page with the tale, sorry man, but I can try to writte a synopsis from what I remember.

The Bran series was great in one concrete thing: it had a really strong bive and primeval ambient. Better than the stories themselves was that feeling in them. The stories are allways the same one: Picts against Rome invaders. In one of them, Kull makes a time trip and fights besides Bran against the romans. A marvel-comics kinda shit idea Laughing Bad story that one, but great descriptions of the military camps of the age and the types of barbarians who served as auxiliars in both armies. Sadly he included vikings who in no way had arrived to Scotland by these days, but well.

In my opinion are the stories of REH with more hate and anger. Reading them you really have strong feelings in your body. The dude put rage anbd blood on these lines and descriptions. It's really hardcore stuff Yeahhhh! Laughing


In the stories the Picts are telling and retelling the story of "The Race" as he called. And some VERY STRANGE Howard racial ideas there, also:

The Picts were supposedly the first true human race ever in the Earth. Confused Forget about homo sapiens origin in Africa.

So these first Cro-Magnons (the Picts) landed in Scotland and killed the few Neaderthal tribes there -the survivors went to hide into caves and never came back, but REH said they were the origin of the myths about Trolls and Ogres-.

These picts are very primitive and not indo-european. Kinda in a way the same REH was as he physically stated he wanted to identify himself with them. He said -in the prologue of the book- he didn't wanted to look like an "aryan" warrior but a short, strong and black haired and eyed pict -as he imagined them-. These picts look mediterranean, not celtic at all. I don't think he described them neither similar to amerindians, but more like the old descriptions of Cro-Magnon men of the time. They used stone tools and pretty much lived like Cro-Magnons in huts.



The Picts discovered how to make Iron weapons. Now it's the age of Bran Mak Morn. REH said he wrotte MaK with "K" because this letter doesn't exist in gaelic, so the pict has a name that sounds a littlebit celtic but it's not, talking about the picts being older.

Bran is a king with "pure blood". That means he directly descends from ancient Thurian Age picts -who did look like amerindians-. The rest of the Picts have an ape-like apparence. Bran is allways complaining about how his "race" once ruled the Earth and now are just a bunch of monkeys Laughing But in any case he would risk his life to defend them and the pride of his race. And he does several times.

(The word "race" and the "pride of the race" is sooo many times written in these stories sometimes you just get sick).

Well, later in this same book, Howard mentions that these ape-like picts were the ones who originated the stories about Trolls and Ogres. Now, forget about Neanderthals as he previously quoted, now the Picts are. Rolling Eyes Well.



WORMS OF THE EARTH -(as I remember):

The story starts with a group of romans who have captured a Pict warrior. He is going to be crucified. With the romans there's another Pict, Patha Mac Othna, who is an ambassador of the pict king Bran.

Partha Mac Othna watches how the pict warrior is crucified and doesn't say shit. The romans laugh and tell him to go tell his king about Roma's power. Partha goes and then we know he is really Bran Mak Morn in disguise. He swears revenge and all that shit and -if i'm not wrong- his shaman tells him about the Worms of the Earth -an ancient monster race that lives under the earth-.

(A funny note: In another REH tale, these creatures are shown again, and are called the "Little People", descendants of ancient human beings mixed with serpent-men who were forced to hide in caves by primitive Cro-Magnons. They -GO IMAGINE- Laughing ARE THE ORIGIN OF THE ANCIENT MYTHS OF TROLLS AND OGRES) Laughing Really, this Howard was amazing... Laughing

Finding them is a nice idea as the romans have built a tower in Pictland, and that is clearly a phallic symbol that the picts can't tolerate, so a subterranean attack would be just cool.

Problem is: the Worms are really disgusting. And Bran as a member of The Race should not mix with them. Because the Worms are descendants of the serpent-men, who are the original enemies of mankind. But... wait. Let me think- Bran says... Who do i hate more, romans or snakes? Shit, I DO HATE ROMANS MORE. Let's find the Worms.

The Picts -I can't remember how they got it- own a balck stone that is sacred for the Worms. Here is it:



Bran goes to a Scottish lake and throws the stone into the waters. scratch

And so then he comes to see a witch who lives in a shitty swamp who is a cousin of the worms.

She is ugly and cold blooded but she has needs and Bran is so barbaric cute, she proposes to fuck all night long and next day she will take Bran to visit her cousins. Bran says ok. Though the witch is described as really anti-hot, we believe Bran is so macho he doesn't even need a viagra. Next morning the witch awakes with a big smile and Bran runs to puke in the swamp. Then they go to the Worms cave.

Bran enters alone, and goes down to hell in a very Lovecraftian description of the descending cave, with stairs less and less built for human feet and more and more for serpent-like appendices. Finally he reaches the bottom. The worms try to eviscerate him but he shouts he has their sacred stone in a secret place and won't give it back less they help him to destroy the Tower. He also asks -well, let's better say ORDERS- he wants the roman who crucified the pict, alive.

Bran goes out and runs to his village.

Next day, the roman tower is destroyed FROM DOWN by unknown causes and all that you know.

Bran goes back to the lake and swims searching for the stone. scratch How? Does he have a skuba gear? Nope. Somehow he knows exactly were he throw the stone and finds it. But before that, he feels there some plesiosaurus lurking in the lake's deeps. This was to give an even more primeval and folklorical feeling to the story I guess Rolling Eyes Nah, really, while reading it is great, kinda poetic, but now I do realize it has nothing to do about the storyline Laughing But well, the plot is really weak as the 99% of REH's plots... I will finish.

Bran goes to a Cromlech were he had dated his disgusting new girlfriend. She is there with tons of her cousins and they have a gift for Bran: the roman who crucified the other pict in the prologue. The roman has gone nutz as a poor Lovecraftian character. He has seen the Horror. Bran say something like "he has no use, now". The witch tries to kiss Bran but he tells her he won't put his dick in his scaled fucking hole anymore. She doesn't gets pissed, in fact she laughs the whole chapter. The cousin worms make hostile sounds to Bran asking for their stone. Bran does what a REH barbarian must do:

He throws the stone to them Laughing Laughing Some sound of broken serpentine bones is heared. Bran spits and goes back to his village.

Some people doesn't know how to say "THANKS".

scratch Laughing


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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 10:53

Bastard, you are lucky Wink I have found the story online for you:

http://manybooks.net/scripts/pager_iphone.php?tid=howardrother07worms_of_the_earth


Also, there was a song about the tale LOL:

http://www.lyricstime.com/rosae-crucis-behind-the-eyes-of-partha-mac-othona-lyrics.html
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 18:29

HAHA, that witch is a hag or some kinda Mongoloid? He desribed her as having "yellow slanted eyes" and "black hair". Seems she's some kinda cat-like at one poiint, then she described herself as a "were-woman" and mentions wolves alot. In the movie she's rather reptile like and vampiric, than wolf. In Stones script, she more directly involved with the wolves that chase Conan.

As for "Dagon's Borrow", strange how Bran enlists a Philistine or Semitic god in Britain for aid against the Romans,lol. Howard seems to mention Greeks alot in this story. Bran cannot defeat the Romans on his own, so calls upon devils to do the deed. So much for barbarian supermen, haha.

Thanks Turd, for the story and your synopsis !

Sometimes Howard liked Germanics, other times he did with them as he did the Romans, or even Picts. He's a switcher when it suits him.

Yeah, some of Howard's stories are ridiculous stories, filled with a perverted and misplaced glory in the cult of primitivism. Sometimes I dont know when he's referring to Celts or to American Indians or even Africans. I often cant bother to finish reading some of them as often their heavily romanized aspects is so biased its gagging..I still prefer his King Kull stories over Conan and his other ones.

His racial descriptions are contradictory and I think he gets a hard on whenever writes down his hero's physical description,lol. Always his heroes are Bronze skinned, but somehow of always better quality than Southern Mediterranean or Oriental people(or Northern blond race for that matter), because his heroes are from the "North", or mountains or something which always makes them superior, normally it has to do with cold weather. foufou

Your right though, he was heavily interested in anthropology or quasi-Racial Anthropology whatever they had available and famous at the time.

But almost always though, most of his heroes belong to the Bronze Race of the Greeks.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/hesiodagesofman_3.htm

Racial Descriptions in the story are interesting:



Quote :
Titus Sulla was justly proud; for he was military governor of Eboracum and answerable only to the emperor of Rome. He was a strongly built man of medium height, with the hawk-like features of the pure-bred Roman.


Quote :
"guest" and who stood like a bronze image, unspeaking

Quote :
He was dark, but he did not resemble the Latins around him. There was about him none of the warm, almost Oriental sensuality of the Mediterranean which colored their features. The blond barbarians behind Sulla's chair were less unlike the man in facial outline than were the Romans. Not his were the full curving red lips, nor the rich waving locks suggestive of the Greek. Nor was his dark complexion the rich olive of the south; rather it was the bleak darkness of the north. The whole aspect of the man vaguely suggested the shadowed mists, the gloom, the cold and the icy winds of the naked northern lands. Even his black eyes were savagely cold, like black fires burning through fathoms of ice. His height was only medium but there was something about him which transcended mere physical bulk--a certain fierce innate vitality, comparable only to that of a wolf or a panther. In every line of his supple, compact body, as well as in his coarse straight hair and thin lips, this was evident--in the hawk-like set of the head on the corded neck, in the broad square shoulders, in the deep chest, the lean loins, the narrow feet.

Quote :
This other was a stunted giant, with gnarly limbs, thick body, a low sloping brow and an expression of dull ferocity, now clearly mixed with fear. If the man on the cross resembled, in a tribal way, the man Titus Sulla called guest, he far more resembled the stunted crouching giant

Quote :
As a faint blue line to the west lay the foothills that beyond the horizon grew to the wild mountains of Wales where dwelt still wild Celtic tribes--fierce blue-eyed men that knew not the yoke of Rome.

Quote :
Bran met the silent men of the fen, reticent, dark of eye and hair, speaking a strange mixed tongue whose long-blended elements had forgotten their pristine separate sources. Bran recognized a certain kinship in these people to himself, but he looked on them with the scorn of a pure- blooded patrician for men of mixed strains. Not that the common people of Caledonia were altogether pure- blooded; they got their stocky bodies and massive limbs from a primitive Teutonic race which had found its way into the northern tip of the isle even before the Celtic conquest of Britain was completed, and had been absorbed by the Picts. But the chiefs of Bran's folk had kept their blood from foreign taint since the beginnings of time, and he himself was a pure-bred Pict of the Old Race. But these fenmen, overrun repeatedly by British, Gaelic and Roman conquerors, had assimilated blood of each, and in the process almost forgotten their original language and lineage. For Bran came of a race that was very old, which had spread over western Europe in one vast Dark Empire, before the coming of the Aryans, when the ancestors of the Celts, the Hellenes and the Germans were one primal people, before the days of tribal splitting-off and westward drift.

*This one here, seems taken from James Fenimore Cooper's "Last of the Mohicans-

Quote :
Sulla was a brave man, but each man has his own dread, and Sulla's was Cormac na Connacht, the black-haired prince of the Gaels, who had sworn to cut out the governor's heart and eat it raw.

^Sounds like Magua wanting Colonal Munro's heart. Although I have no idea whether this scene is in the novel or just film version of Mann's. However the practice was conducted by Mesoamericans, such as Aztec's ect. Or even in Sub-Saharan Africa, in the Congo and such where they actually eat the hearts along with the rest of the bodies. mongol
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 19:34

The Were-Witchwoman's name is "Atla". Again Howard seems to be recycling Greek names and his own story yarns. Its the name of his Frost Queen in "Frost Giants Daughter", her name was "Atali".

From Wiki:

Quote :
Howard combined the legend of Atalanta with another reworked Bulfinch legend, that of Daphne and Apollo, but he reversed the roles. Whereas Apollo was a god and Daphne a mortal, Howard made Atali a goddess and Conan a mortal. In the original, Cupid had struck Apollo with an arrow to excite love for Daphne, but struck her with an arrow to cause her to find love repellent. Howard kept the idea of the love-maddened Apollo (rather a lust-maddened Conan) pursuing the girl until she invokes aid from her divine father.[

So again, Howard uses the name over again. Seems also a means to connect the Serpent race to Atlantis as well. And of course, we have Dagon in the story. The Sea-god of the Philstines, think Neptune. But Howard uses Lovecraft, who changed much and combined all as well as Howard liked doing.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 30 Aug - 23:49

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Thanks Turd, for the story and your synopsis !

No problem, bro.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Mon 24 Aug - 6:30

1938 cover:

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Mon 24 Aug - 8:32

I don't have my books around me right now, but there is a character of wolf associated sorceress in Hour Of The Dragon if I am not mistaken, she is named Zelata (or Zelaya ?).
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Fri 28 Aug - 23:48

You're right, she's named Zelata and has two companions, an eagle and a wolf. She appears in chapter 7.

BTW, some cheap shots at REH's writings in this thread are outraging for a fan like me, guys. Do not wonder if I seldom post on this forum.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sat 29 Aug - 18:14

Oh come on Axe, we give criticism shots to Arnold and Milius too at times. Just because we are all fans that doesn't mean we have to be fanatics about it. Your far too levelheaded to be like that. Its just a discussion forum, not a Black Lotus cult. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sun 30 Aug - 2:30

Axe, man, that you don't like some comments, I perfectly understand. That you go away because in this forum sometimes we shot at REH, honestly I don't. scratch Why don't you give your opinion when these commets arise? Maybe it will be great to know why you don't agree. It will be great, indeed, that's why this is called "discussion" forum. As rightful is to say "I dislike this about REH" as is answering "Maybe you didn't notice that, you arsehole". You know, as long as you expose your theory, you can even call me arsehole and maybe I can swallow my words, Mr. Green same time you help me discovering something new I didn't realize before. I dunno, man, really, if you have something to say, why don't you say it? I don't think here anybody ever censored your opinion.

Many choices before leaving. Opening a post titled "Stop shooting cheaply at REH you motherfuckers" or something, then writting your theory. rabbit I dunno, man. Why taking it so seriously? Really. Though... maybe I don't wanna know the answer to that question. Confused

Of course, your choice bro.

Btw, do you accept expensive shots to him? Wink



PD: I think you somehow mean that you are leaving the forum because of my commentaries in this thread. Well... sorry if my opinions are cheap, but I never asked you to buy them. I wrotte these reviews to share some reading experience and have some fun, I am not and never intended to be an academic of Bob. If you feel offensive that I writte in my style in a public forum, it's your problem, but I can't apologize for that. I am sorry you leave, but honestly, I am not sorry for not taking REH seriously in the way you think I should. It's crazy, man. And if you are able to notice I wrotte a review that took me like an hour or so, maybe you will see that I do care about the theme. You do care? Writte your stuff in your style. Who's stopping you????
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sun 30 Aug - 9:50

Bob Howard created "Conan".
Gene Roddenberry created "Star Trek".
Madeleine L'Engle created "The Future Took Us".
John and Bill Stair created "Zardoz".
Hugh Lofting created "Doctor Doolittle".

I LOVE these people - creators of fabulous characters and worlds, people who take me on a trip through their imagination. And they (and their stories) are ALL flawed.

For me to truly understand them, I must admit the mistakes, the illogical bits, the boring bits, the self-important bits.

We are (I think) all here to learn and to share. We all have our interpretations, but we are united by a central interest and enthusiasm.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sun 30 Aug - 14:44

Finally, labelling the whole forum community because of the opinion of one or two members, man, what can I say... Maybe you don't like me, but what exactly makes you dislike the rest? You are forgetting all the positive work the people has done here for a long time. And this forum/website IS NOT AGAINST REH at all, as much as some people wants to labell it. They have their reasons to label it that way, maybe they just need an enemy. I don't think in this forum exists a generalized opinion about REH at all. If you think there is, you are totally wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Sun 30 Aug - 22:11

I like this one from Frazetta, reminds me of Conan's mother and cimmerian scene along with the wolf dogs:

http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/fantasy/images/FrankFrazetta-Wolves-1966.jpg

That is a 1966 piece?
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Mon 31 Aug - 7:52

Yeah it predates the movie and is totally this scene

http://www.conancompletist.com/img/photos/attvill08.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Thu 8 Oct - 0:28

Another Howardian Witch illustration from the fanzine AMRA, january 1963:

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay   Today at 17:52

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Possible Witch-Wolf from Virgil Finlay
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