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 Artistic freedom in Conan

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Artistic freedom in Conan   Sun 14 Sep - 23:29

I want to writte this aluding to a big difference between John Milius and true fascist phylosophies, in order to put a little more light in the director's personality and his black legend, though in no way one can ever understand complexity and contradictions of any living person.


I was recently reading some things about nazi Germany artists. Guess you know all that about "degerated art" and so, as the nazi government had a black list of artist considered repulsive -people like Picasso and Matisse goddamit -The main phylosophy was that every art which deformed the human body was anti-natural in their minds, as they were looking for the ideal god-like human and so they hired artists to create images of that.

These artists turned artisans as the main principe that makes an artist is freedom to create his own vision of reality. When you are told what to do you are into another person's creativity and in case of Hitler let's say, politely, it wasn't too "open minded" Rolling Eyes . He wanted publicity and specific images to decorate his words. Amazing how the called "heroic realism" was really a deformation of reality, as there was nothing realistic there, but pure idealism. That is manipulation of reality, as reality includes deformity, fear, and human humility. The negation of all these is holy crap, I can't find another adjetive better than "coward". I'm trying to be objective as you can see. Mr. Green

The nazi art was mostly peaceful, balanced, harmonic. No horror was shown, no war ugly side was shown, everything just looked "perfect" and "normal". No blood. No deads. And if there were deads, they were embellisehd with beautiful ideas like honor, sacrifice, and so. That of course had a strong reason. That of course served for a main purpose. I don't think I had to say which one. Keep people calm, and do your stuff at home. Clever fuckers. But it is an essential lie.

Kid: Dad, how war is?

Soldier dad: Oh, hm, well, it's beautiful, really beautiful, full of colours and amazing sounds. Also, soldiers are never afraid and they all are really relaxed and bullets never get them because our men are like superheroes. And if somebody dies -i won't lie to you, son, sometimes that happens- they die with honor pride because they have heaven waiting for them and there they are all happy and good. Now go back to sleep and don't listen to the sound of the screams, it's only an illusion.

Reason why picasso for exaple and the Guernica was so hated, because it shows horror to people. Most common people (I was once one of these) doesn't like that picture either as they find it ugly. But the point is -and I learned that after years of hating that painting- is that is not ugly but it shows uglyness. And people doesn't want that, people we want to be comfortably numbed and don¡t see that kind of things because "our lifves are harder enough".

These artist were under huge pression and developing their styles was simply a dead dream. By change, they got tons of money, mercedes, Bavarian castles, but all these is nothing compared to the castration of their evolution. The party didn't wan't but ONE style, and that forced artists to adapt themselves to that style and stop their true owns. Maybe mercedes and castles looked great at the start but I tell ya artists aren't artist because they choose to but -in most cases- because it's the only way to enjoy life. And without that, thieves, there comes a time when mercedes cease to sparkle, the gold loses it's luster, and castles becomes a prison.


Now, reading Bill Stout's interviews is amazing how Milius gave total freedom to him and Cobb. I think that is the main reason of the success of the movie. Milius was really convinced about that from the start. He also knew Stout WAS the visual artist and in that sense he was below him. Milius was the boss and said NO or YES but with the counciousness of Stout being more capable than him of creating visual art. There was no repression for the artist there. In fact this movie was every concept artist dream. Maybe Milius knew he needed to be that way in order to be succesfull? I don't know the man, I can't say that. The fact is what happen and happened like this.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Sun 14 Sep - 23:44

Fascist or National Socialism art was mostly based/borrowed on ancient Greeks Romans, while the Nazi's used Roman as well as Teutonic/Nordic imagery. They however spen alotve time in the Orient too, like Tibet and allied with the Japanese whom were designation honorary Aryans. I think they had anthropolgists using nonsensical terms like Nordic-Mongoloid for their "progressive" types(usually selected looks and ethnicity). Fascist Art even had nudity to, so it wasnt prudish.

Milius and even Spielberg and Lucas heavily borrowed ideas(and became highly successful in doing so) namely from Nazi Germany and its art(including Propaganda films and symbolism).

Milius is a self-described Zen-Fascist, then again he called himself a Maoist, far as I know he a Republican and member of the NRA. Anyhow he's outve his mind but I guess enjoys the attention. foufou Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Sun 14 Sep - 23:58

Haha, I don't know if the man is nuts or not, who knows, but most probably as the lets say 99% o people is in one way or another Laughing

What I tried to point is besides Milius could take nazi sthethics as Lucas did the man is not really a follower of the sect, you know. Starting from the point he is jew, though he could feel afinity with some nazi ideas -some of them can be pretty atractive for a young naive artist, like that "search for the divine ideal" and so- he was not sofascist in the practice, least in that I pointed previously. Who knows if he is such a bastard in other ways, he probably is, who knows Laughing

Also another important difference was Milius show all violence and gore without embellishing it but all brutality is crude and realistic. Head chops included. I think that is honest. And I also think Oliver Stone(d) wold have done a much more stylization of violence ala "natural born killers" shit with Conan creating a cartoon and not having the strengh of Milius' job. (Maybe I'm wrong as Stone did an excellent job with Platoon.

I think the treatment of Milius' barbaric violence is honest. Also the deaths aren't justified. It's not that ThulsaDoom accidentally felt into my sword and inciventally he cutted his own head off and i'm not guilty of all this guts covering my skin. Nah, he is a fucking barbarian who do what he does. Maybe he is forced to fight in the pit but FUCK, HE ENJOYES IT. No hypocresy there and I respect that.

Something I didn't find in "Red Dawn" as I previously talk about in some other post, I find Conan way much honest even being "fantasy" in theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 0:23

I really dont know..Milius is a big WW2 buff, although he seems to like Soviet stuff too, as does Speilberg, maybe one can accuse them of being Communists rather than Fascist?! I personally dont like looking to much into the politics of Hollywood and not sure how much I can say here as this isnt a Political fora,lol. But Hollywood/Entertainment Industry/Art World, are extremely strange and often hypocritical and even extremists.


I think most people dont understand the gravity of the allusions, symbolism and homages or whatever from which they pluck it from and make billions of dollars. Today, its ok to like Evil still just as long as its loved by millions of people, especially kids and maybe PC it a little to get a larger audience. We have all the Nazi's , I mean Imperials parading around our streets and kids posing with Darth Vader. Even Evil and villainy can be loved, just slap a price sticker on it. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 0:48

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
I really dont know..Milius is a big WW2 buff, although he seems to like Soviet stuff too, as does Speilberg, maybe one can accuse them of being Communists rather than Fascist?!

I don't think the point is accusing anybody.

Also I do believe art goes beyond politics and it's a GREAT mistake to mix both and probably the problem with Milius is being so big mouth about his beliefs -even as much as he talks about them are so uncertain for us Laughing -. Guess he is just a punk who likes to create chaos around him in order to be seen, better people talk shit about him than not be talked about at all...

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
I personally dont like looking to much into the politics of Hollywood and not sure how much I can say here as this isnt a Political fora,lol

No, sure I know that but the purpose was clearifying Milius' background, not accussing anybody or such. See, I enjoy Leni Riefenstahl movies, I enjoy watching nazi memorabilia in museums, though I am very aware of the meaning of all these symbols. Same as Milius or whoever to use the symbols he wants for their works I think.

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
I think most people dont understand the gravity of the allusions, symbolism and homages or whatever from which they pluck it from and make billions of dollars. Today, its ok to like Evil still just as long as its loved by millions of people, especially kids and maybe PC it a little to get a larger audience. We have all the Nazi's , I mean Imperials parading around our streets and kids posing with Darth Vader. Even Evil and villainy can be loved, just slap a price sticker on it. Wink

Laughing Yeah, and that I think is innocent as the attraction for the nazi memorabilia can be, or the love for vampire or zombie movies or whatever. Nothing wrong with that

AS LONG

one is concious about what is eaten. Reason why I like to analise Milius' background and all the possible nazi symbolism in the movie, I repeat not to accuse at all but as a source of I think very interesting info and better understanding (hopefully). I agree the common thing is being ABSOLUTELY unconcious of the symbology and origin of tons of these things. And yeah, it's kinda scary seeing children doing the hail salute to Darth Vader and so. Don't forget the innocent and playful side of all this, but let's also remember the serious side. Both are indispensable to remain sanity in this wacky world. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:00

Well in fairness, being a jew isnt a get outve the jail free card so to speak, many were involved in Marxism/Socialism/Communism and Eugenics/Racism too. The accusing part, I dont mean by you, but by media journalists. Milius was accused of being a Nazi and even Anti-Semite I believe as well.

The thing I like about the CONAN movie was that its basically free of modern sensibilities and apolitical. CONAN has Nazi heroic attributes, while Thulsa Doom is basically how most view Hitler. Like earl Jones and Milius said, bad guys never view themselves as bad. Milius supposedly went to some length not to make Doom a cardboard villain, despite "researching all the evil men in history and putting them into one character".

Plus Stone and Milius were huge fans of Richard Wagner whom was a noted Racist. Howard isnt free from bias or Racism either, but calling Howard a "Nazi" is moronic, as he predated them,lol.


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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:08

Milius said he loved "Schlinder's list" and consider's best work of Spielberg. I think it's one of the better movies about the period and doesn't portray nazi's as "bad people" but as human beings under a extremely hard pressure -which made them do extremely cruel things-. Same with that movie about last days of Hitler, (Der untergang), were Hitler was shown again not as a demon or such crap but as a man who tries to keep control over something that was beyond sanity. The movie was also very respecful with german soldiers who did their job as better as they could and if they did criminal acts was simply because war is all about maniac situations which hardly can be controled. I like that kind of telling history as evil, imo, doesn't exist, what exist is the danger of not being in reality and then do things without any kind of responsability or compassion.

So, I think if Milius liked "Schilnder's list" he was not so lost Rolling Eyes though I hoped Spielberg haven't been sleeping the king's dream since then and made shits he did later.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:10

PS

The Nazi's got their immigration and race laws from the USA, check Madison Grant. So Democracy isnt always the good guys. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:19

Agree Wink


Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

CONAN has Nazi heroic attributes,.

Well I like to believe that attributes were way older than nazi ideas. Maybe nazis took them and used them and maybe Milius knew about them from nazi story but I think you know joseph Campbell or others like him who claim these symbols were in the human inconcious since prehistory.


PS: this is starting looking like a chat Laughing Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:41

Yeah, sure they existed before Nazi's.

What is CONAN though in Milius' film? He's not Howard's quasi Amerindian and Gaelic superman. He's more a hero plucked from one of Wagner's operas, who is really a Germanic-Hun hybrid from the time of Goths. I think Wagner had a opera based on the exploits of the Atilla and his Huns. Some German nationalists saw themselves as Huns, go figure. * Hitler was a huge Wagner fan as well. Milius also made Conan some kinda proto-mongol Genghis Khan, complete with his fear of wolves, which is something alien to Italics, Greeks or Celts as they venerated and deified them.

Take one of Wagner's Germanic/Teutonic with a dash of Hunnic heroes and insert him into a Soviet WWII Propaganda movie called "Alexander Nevsky", with the Eastern Orthodox Slavo-Turko-Uralic-Semi Mongolian Russians(ie Conan , Subotai and Akiro) fighting against the Christian(Roman Catholic)Tuetonic Knights(Thulsa Doom of Stygia and Rexor & Thorgrim of Nordheim) and you get "CONAN THE BARBARIAN". Even Osric was like some Kievian Rus(ie Eastern Norman) dressed like a Bulgar or something, leftover. Crazy isnt it? Conan


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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 1:50

Laughing


I allways saw Conan as child who was seriously abused and learned how to defend himself from a world without compassion, and ended being stronger than anyone. His objectives are survival, defending and ultimately murder the fuckers that fucked him. But least in this movie -and also in the destroyer we could add- he has no colonial objetives or plannings of mass murdering...

Also the tale could be seen as a man who had no control of his destiny at all, as he is again and again manipulated by others, until he finally finds the power of choice at the very end -confronting the manipulation itself incarned in Doom-. Talks about will to power which is really about freedom to follow each owns will and liberation from manipulative parasites (external AND internal). Will to power is not about ambition really.

Also the movie had some other lectures about sexuality and so but I find those really confusing to understand a shit. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Mon 15 Sep - 2:44

Flaming Turd wrote:
PS: this is starting looking like a chat Laughing Wink

Well i think we're the only two truly more regular active members, especially here on the English speaking fora. I tried over the years to lure more people here to post, but those I knew from TheArnoldfans rarely post anymore(confined more to lurking these days). And I wasnt very cozy with anybody from CONAN.com(whom are mostly Milius/movie haters extremists,lol) and those I did know(back in 2003), were also banned along with me and I lost contact with regardless.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Sat 20 Sep - 18:14

Quote :
Q- Thulsa Doom is a particularly interesting villain, wouldn't you say? You seemed to enjoy creating a complex bad guy.

- He tells the truth. He never tells a lie.

Q: You let Conan behead Thulsa Doom. Why?

- Because he's wrong.

He tells the truth -interesting as we have argued a lot of times Doom was essentially a "liar"... But here Milius denies that. Neutral

So, he tells the truth BUT also is WRONG. scratch We need to analyze this a littlebit...

Quote :
Q- One of Thulsa Doom's problems is that he's static. He's comfortable with his power, happy with his con­trol. And it kills him.

- That's a good point. When Doom is undone it's almost as though he has to do it. He's similar to Kurtz in APOCALYPSE NOW. He realizes, just a bit, that he's help­ing fulfill his own destiny. That another force must replace him.

Ok, so he's wrong because he is not the stronger in the house. Is that all? Mmmmm, Kurtz was wrong because he knew, besides all his extremely reasonable phylosophy, that the human soul can't tolerate all the horror that his own phylosophy proclaims. The ammount of pain experienced is so high than the only way out is death. So, there was the greatness of this character and that movie.

But in Milius' case, looks like Doom must die just because Conan has bigger balls???? I don't get it... scratch

Ok, I think Thulsa-Doom is WORNG because he is full of ego. That is his own destruction. He stopped being alive, he just relaxed too much. That's anti-life... I can get that, but still is not the same with Kurtz.

Quote :
He's the villain. But the villain is not as easy as all that. The villain is sometimes more than just the other side of the coin, which is the way they're depicted.

I dislike that good and evil are taken for granted in certain kinds of pop movies. In “STAR WARS”, the rebels are unqualifiedly good, and the Force is better; the Empire is the bad guy. Why? Because the history books tell us that empires are bad, and that the rebels are the freedom fighters. But what are they rebelling against? We don't know anything. We assume everything.

- Q: The Empire is evil because it issues black armor.

- John Milius: That's right. We assume the rebels are the good guys, that they're righteous, humanitarian and slightly to the left. Whereas if I were in “STAR WARS”, I'd definitely want to be working for Darth Vader; I'd much rather be on HIS side.

I sincerely agree with that point of view. I allways thought why the bad soldiers allways had masks till I realized it allowed the good guys murdering them without being "bad". They were only killing robots, not human beings.

This is something I allways hate about some "left winged" stories, kinda make me sick about how many people see fascists as "devils" and all that. I am more left than right (fascism bitched too much in my country to ever wanna feel a little close to it) though I don't identify myself with that way of view things of the extreme left side -I deeply dislike them-. As I said, I think nazis were true son of bitches and criminals though I KNOW they were persons and I am interested in how a man can turn into a true bastard, better than just assume they are simply bad. In that way, I am glad Milius say this and think like this.

Though in his words is speaking his fascist side. Now I have no doubt about him having it. Kinda contradictory in other sentences, in other interviews. Guess he's just a man and probably there's a little mess in his mind... Who can blame him for that Laughing I think it's way more interesting, a man with contradictions, than a 100% right or 100% left -which is almost 100% of the cases are almost identical Laughing

Quote :
- And at one point Doom says to Conan, "You came in and killed my snake. Why would you do that?" Later Doom sees the Orgy Chamber pillar has been knocked down and asks, "What manner of monsters would do this?" And he's absolutely right. As far as he's con­cerned, the Mansons have just raided him. He doesn't understand why. At the beginning of CONAN, Doom was just looking for steel and happened to kill a lot of peo­ple. So what? In Conan's world everybody kills a lot of people.

There's nothing unusual about Doom, even today. The Shah of Iran was on television, before he died, being interviewed by Barbara Walters, and she said, "They say you personally ordered the torture and killing of a thousand people." He responded, "They cannot count. Perhaps several hundred, but..."

But, well well well, ok, now I think Milius is a littlebit nutz here Laughing Sure Manson and other psychos are intelligent and creative in their answers but they speak from a sick mouth and their behaviur has nothing about reasonable. They are a tummor that should be listed and observed, but not supported for my ass sake. Laughing

It's like a PUNK world or what? Lol. So, why are they so surprised about people murdering his men in the orgy? Is that Thulsa-Doom has no sense of responsability? He kills people and spect people to love him? Even Shakespeare had ancient psycho characters who KNEW his acts will had consecuences. Thinking that violence is free is idiot...

I guess it's ok in an ancient barbarian world with different morals than today but you can't place this in the modern world... I still don't understand why Thulsa-Doom is WRONG... I used to think It was because his colonial objetives and his desires of EGO-GROWING but as Milius saying "Empires are not bad" I start to wonder if he supports those... In "Red Dawn" the USA is defending from an attack, as supposedly Conan is... Doom isn't defending from nothing, he's just abusing of his power and using it in his own benefit. Zen and Buddishm and Nietzsche talks about that abusive power, that would be evil... But looks like Milius is more on the side of Doom Laughing Laughing Laughing I guess he's not that honest, in the end... In some things he is, in comparison with those he is oppossed to... But he isn't perfect either. rabbit

Quote :
I tried to portray the Cult of Set's members as unable to see anything particularly wrong with their cult.

It's ok, they destroyed a town but hell, it's a barbaric era... But Milius don't show us Conan doing the same. He doesn't kill any mother in front of his kid... He kills women, though -but he erased that scene-... I think Milius' Conan character would have been much more cruel and amoral than the one we finally got...

Maybe a mess, but one will never really understand one man's mind, EVER. Haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Sun 21 Sep - 1:39

There's a few comments and even interviews around where Milius basically said he didnt care much for the movie. So he's an oddjob too for sure.
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PostSubject: DANDARR   Thu 2 Oct - 3:55

I have autisim. Some kids i know think i'm like a barbarian. No wonder on the website Imagine Casting, i came up with a idea for a cartoon series called DANDARR: BARBARIAN OF THE FUTURE!!!

scratch Thorgrim
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Thu 2 Oct - 4:32

And spamming the boards about it helps you how?
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Thu 2 Oct - 18:19

We love you, Dan. Please don't try so hard. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Conan is not autistic   Thu 2 Oct - 19:14

I believe CONAN isn't autistic. Conan was enslaved as a young boy. When he fights as a gladiator and when he is set free. There is a lot of things Conan has never experince. He's just a boy in a man's body. He does grow up later, when Valeria is killed and when he kills Thulsa Doom. He certainly matures in CONAN THE DESTROYER.
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Thu 2 Oct - 20:03

Dan wrote:
He certainly matures in CONAN THE DESTROYER.

What's exactly your definition of "matures", my friend??? Lol
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PostSubject: Conan the Warrior King   Fri 3 Oct - 1:59

In CONAN THE DESTROYER, i think he's more man than a child...
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Fri 3 Oct - 11:13

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Flaming Turd wrote:
PS: this is starting looking like a chat Laughing Wink

Well i think we're the only two truly more regular active members, especially here on the English speaking fora.

You are not alone, we read you Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Fri 3 Oct - 13:42

Chrysagon wrote:
Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Flaming Turd wrote:
PS: this is starting looking like a chat Laughing Wink

Well i think we're the only two truly more regular active members, especially here on the English speaking fora.

You are not alone, we read you Wink

Thats a big relief! Rexor For a while I thought there was only Dandruff of Thundarr. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Fri 3 Oct - 18:58

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Artistic freedom in Conan   Fri 3 Oct - 19:36

I read you too! Wink

mongol
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