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 CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?

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AOster
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PostSubject: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 19:51

Ok, so I have been thinking about this over the last few days. I was thinking that, though they tried really hard to include aspects of CTB, the film seems to have had little to do with how Milius envisioned the world of Conan.

Who worked of both movies?
Who wrote CTD?
Did Milius include CTD as part of the canon with his Crown of Iron script?
If not, does that mean that Crown of Iron was to be the second of the trilogy he envisioned?

What are your thoughts?
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Nexus6
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 20:10

I remember hearing Milius say, during the Director's Commentary on the CTB DVD, that if he were to continue with the Conan universe, he would act as if CTD didn't exist at all.
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 21:58

I personally feel Milius either read CTD and KULL scripts or watched the movies atleast, its pretty clear a fact once reading all the various scripts ect.

I wrote up a script review for CTD here:


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http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/conan-the-barbarian-f3/conan-the-destroyer-script-review-t682.htm

I always liked certain aspects to CTD over CTB, mainly Arnold's fighting ability and style and Vic Armstrong's stunt choreography and even the cinematography. As a kid and even now, I always liked that Conan killed more people and was less reliant on others for aid this time and his sword was used and shown more. I think it was this movie more than CTB where the Atlantean became more significant to the association with the character.

Conan in the mirror chamber is one of my favorite parts when he breaks the mirrors and the battle with Dagoth I think still stands up as one of the best fantasy moments in movies(this scene would inspire other movies like Willow-Kilmer against the dragon). Conan standing there victorious and triumphant with his hair blowing in the wind holding his sword covered with blood and the discarding the horn is purely why CONAN always inspired me that combined with the Mountain of Power scene.

Both movies had lots of blood, and I grew up on both CONAN;s along with SONJA, I never really disliked them. CTD can be considered Canon in my opinion. But the way Milius' CTB was set up, it couldve been the last movie and solo movie because Conan came full circle and the original released epilogue.

Milius wasnt so keen on making sequels back then according to many interviews he made both before and after its release and supposedly Cobb wasnt that interested either(but at the time he had HALF THE SKY project set up for himself).
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MightyMcT
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 22:29

AOster, Milius himself responded to some of your questions, back in may 2003 (IGN Film Force interview by Ken Plume):

Quote :
MILIUS: Yeah, see, Conan I always thought of as a trilogy. Each one was a specific thing. The first one was strength. The second one was power.

IGNFF: The third one was going to be?

MILIUS: Responsibility.

(...)

IGNFF: Well, how would you have to change – would you try to stick to your original concept of character development for Conan?

MILIUS: Yeah, I don't know. See, I'd be missing the center section, so I'd probably change a lot of things.

IGNFF: Is there any way to incorporate the center section?

MILIUS: Not really.

IGNFF: To what extent would you disregard the second film?

MILIUS: I wouldn't even pay any attention to the second film. The second film has nothing to do with Conan to me. That's another film.

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AOster
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 23:16

Good answers guys! Thanks!

So would crown of iron be a sequel then? i noticed a reference to another film at the end when I skimmed it briefly today.
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 13 Oct - 23:32

AOster, after reading the KING CONAN script , its a very loose sequel to CTB. I found some CTD and Pogue CONAN/KULL references and similarities within it. Some allusions to Arthurian legend and even The Odyssey are present too, some people noted GLADIATOR and I can agree to some extent. But perhaps oddly I found Pogue's and Thomas' scripts more enjoyable. Milius'(and Oliver Stone for that matter since he's co-writer and major influence ) CTB in all its forms, still couldnt be out done in any event.
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 14 Oct - 11:53

The aesthethics are pretty much the very same in CTB and CTD as The Destroyer was totally designed by Stout and Pier Luigi Basile again. But there are so many crucial mistakes in continuity that you can't consider it a true sequel but much more some kind of spin-off, like The Beastmaster and so.

First of all, it's not the same character. The only rational explanation is Conan took too much Hagga trying to forget valeria and turn mongoloid. Because he wasn't like that in CTB. A little scratch makes the aesthethics empty.

There is a SERIOUS edited cut of CTD which i pretty much enjoyed, really. they cut off all the goofy parts and now the movie really works as a simple fantasy movie and it can even be considered a true sequel of CTB, though it doesn't add NOTHING to CTB but a simple adventure of the character. You need to forget the new Shadizar (why the fuck is noe in the top of a hill???) you must forget about the Mounds /Why the fuck aren't any mounds now???) and you must forget about the gladiator crown and the wheel of pain pendant (why the fuck is he wearing those now???) but the SERIOUS cut works specially when the insulting joked are gone. No vomiting camel here, thank god. True is the mirrors scene is the best part of the movie (though is amazingly goofy why the companions can't enter in the mirror chamber and moment when Conan kills the monster they destroy so easily the glass and enter. Also is silly when they see Conan about to throw the sword to them and scream and do silly gestures of panic AND DON'T SIMPLY MOVE AWAY lol... Though in the serious edition they erased the stupid part of Conan took by the feet and spinned like a wind mill by the monster, which really, really, was fucking annoying (they repeated that shit in AVP with a Predator doing it to an Alien which was, now, really, too much for my self-respect... lol).
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AOster
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 14 Oct - 15:04

Was this the Euro cut?
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MightyMcT
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 14 Oct - 16:56

Nope, he was referring to that fan edit:
CONAN THE DESTROYER - SERIOUS EDITION.



More info there: http://fanedit.org/361/

Wink

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AOster
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 14 Oct - 17:08

Cool, where have I been, eh? I'll have to try and figure all those files out... wish there was a one click solution. bounce
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Wed 15 Oct - 3:27

The major problem for me, was Arnold's build--its completely different and its hard to insert into CTB. Shadizar being different I imagined was cause the last city was destroyed and rebult or the new queen wanted a new city or capital and took the name with her..many in the real world did such things. However, in CTB you would never know, because Shadizar was never mentioned. Interestingly enough, King Osric's longhouse thing was built upon the mountain as well was higher up and over looking some bazaar like city. It also seemed their was more than one Serpent tower present, one tower was near Osric's castle, the other below(or couldve been sloppy editing which made it appear like the different city or configuration as the montage is awkward).

in a strange way Stone's, Milius and Thomas' scipts seem like sequels or could be written/edited into one, or one big movie. Taramis was Yasmina's sister, and it seems Doom's guards still held control over Shadizar, if Jehnna was written into Yasmina or some other relative..it could explain why Conan is back in town. In this script, it seems he's there to honor Valeria and passing through, but he didnt seem to like Taramis as he knew who she was.

Dagoth and Set and Thoth, could all have relationship to Doom. Maybe once Doom was killed, taramis came into fill the void. In Stone's script, Taramis was Doom's second in command, a sorta Evilyn if you will( Dan you there?lol).
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AOster
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Sun 19 Oct - 22:52

Well, after all the downloading, I'm happy with the edited version of CTD. There were a few time I didn't agree with his trimmings, but good overall! However, I still have issues with Conan getting a standing ovation by the citizens when he returns. There is no explanation as to why he is a sudden celebrity.
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Sun 19 Oct - 22:57

"CTD if you were in the editors chair...." Mr. Green

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 20 Oct - 18:17

Yeah, the possible explanation would be that Conan had turned famous because he brought back Yasmina to Shadizar years ago, thought it's still silly.

The citizens would also welcome him because he is some kind of "hero" who is going to help them resurrect his long awaited god... I don't know.

The built of Arnold is really ugly, he looks so deformed... And when he uses clothes, they aren't big enough and he looks fat and idiotic. Also, his facial gestures are allways gortesque and mongoloid. Very bad direction and edition, in terms of a sequel, though I strongly think Fleisher and the writter of the script weren't into doing that but more a goofy movie, a parody. Like GROO THE WANDERER or so. I'm not kidding, I really believe it.

Finally, the most annoying thing for me was CONAN NOT HAVING SEX ANYMORE because he is still soooo in love with the dead Sandahl.

Lol.

Just LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 20 Oct - 18:34

Both CTB and CTD could use a true Directors or Extended cuts restored, thats really the only things that can be realistically done yet.
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 28 Oct - 12:08

oh, the worst thing about Arnold in The Destroyer was the hair Confused

It was a wig, right? Why a wig like that? Looks like a drag queen...

In RED SONJA his hair is really allright again, probably his own one, or a high quality wig. But looks like the natural hair he had in CTB
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 28 Oct - 12:53

You know whats funny, in the Script Drafts of CTB the camel actually retaliates attacks Conan, it tries biting him and spits on him(i guess kinda like seen in CTD). And Conan nearly cleaves its head off with his sword. Strange bit there, instead of man-eating horses, we couldve had man eating-camels of Zamora,lol. We couldve still had the firebreathing of mares of Thulsa Doom, but Milius didnt like special effects-- unless he could actually film it in camera with somehow flamethrowers being inserted through the horses ass to come out its nostrils, lol.
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Einar
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Mon 17 Nov - 16:10

Flaming Turd wrote:
oh, the worst thing about Arnold in The Destroyer was the hair Confused

It was a wig, right? Why a wig like that? Looks like a drag queen...

In RED SONJA his hair is really allright again, probably his own one, or a high quality wig. But looks like the natural hair he had in CTB

Speaking of wigs, isn't everyone in CTB wearing one ? Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Tue 18 Nov - 10:49

You can see Arnold in documentaries a few months before the shooting of CTB and his hair is not very long. I guess they kept the actual fringe hair but added some other under it. Looks more natural
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PostSubject: Re: CTD... in the canon or a stand alone?   Today at 5:54

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