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 Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 9 Jan - 12:07

Was reading one of my books on Mythology and Magic, and it dawned on me. That the "Eye of the Serpent" in the movie was like the famed "Philosopher's Stone". Also Conan, Conan's dad and Thulsa Doom are indeed all linked and are drawn to the same things, so all the parallels they all share is for reason... 'Esoteric' alchemy. Even Milius' insertion of a Christ-like Resurrection can be explained.





Here's the Wiki's article on it:
Quote :

The philosopher's stone (Latin: lapis philosophorum; Greek: chrysopoeia) is a legendary substance, supposedly capable of turning inexpensive metals into gold; it was also sometimes believed to be a means of making people younger, if not making them immortal. For a long time it was the "holy grail" of Western alchemy.

In the view of spiritual alchemy, making the philosopher's stone would bring enlightenment upon the maker and conclude the Great Work.

This legendary stone was thought to help amplify transmutations while doing alchemy. It was also thought to have had a dark red tone.

My book:

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 6:47

Cromulus, I think that "alchemy" symbolism would be related to the idea of the "Riddle of Steel", not turning stones into gold, but turning them into steel. In the world of Milius, good steel is more important than gold. And you know, it is also related to the idea of the soul of a man turning into steel, also.

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That is the mother of Conan in the Stout storyboard - as you can see, there's an Owl in her shoulder.





Ancient Mesopotamian OWL figurine head - 5.000 years old.





Being the cimmerians related with the Celts -(and also with the Wikings, but even in the Milius movie, are closer to Celts)-, I wondered if there would be some celtic goddess related to an Owl.

And there was one.

Quote :
In Welsh mythology, Blodeuwedd or Blodeuedd, (Middle Welsh composite name from blodeu 'flowers, blossoms' + gwedd 'face, aspect, appearance': "flower face"), is a woman made from the flowers of broom, meadowsweet and the oak by Math fab Mathonwy and Gwydion to be the wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes.


Lleu Llaw Gyffes has been placed under three curses by his mother Arianrhod; the last of these dictates that he will never have a human wife. King Math and Lleu's uncle Gwydion create Blodeuwedd from flowers and she marries Lleu.

Blodeuwedd has an affair with Gronw Pebr and they plot to kill Lleu. Lleu can only be killed under certain conditions, and Blodeuwedd tricks him into telling her what these conditions are. He can not be killed indoors or outdoors, on horseback or on foot; and can be killed only by a spear forged when people are attending mass. Consequently he can only be killed whilst he had one foot on a bathtub and one on a goat (the bathtub being placed on a river bank but under a roof) and by someone using a weapon created as specified.

Under pretence of "Lord, will you show me how these conditions might be fulfilled..?", Blodeuwedd conveys him to precisely this situation, with Gronw lying in wait with the weapon. Lleu is (apparently) killed and Gronw and Blodeuwedd assume power. On hearing of this, Gwydion sets out to find and cure Lleu, who is now in the form of an eagle. Gwydion restores Lleu, who kills Gronw.

Gwydion curses Blodeuwedd, turning her into an owl. "You are never to show your face to the light of day, rather you shall fear other birds; they will be hostile to you, and it will be their nature to maul and molest you wherever they find you. You will not lose your name but always be called Blodeuwedd."












So, if we follow this Celtic archetype, the Mother of Conan would be a treacherous bitch, who kills his own husband... That scratch hmm is not exactly the kind of character Nadisuka seemed to play... Though the "forge of a special weapon" and the cursed end of her could fit somewhere.

Also, the strong sexual look and energy of Nadiska fits with this celtic goddess.





Quote :
Huitaca (also Chia) -


Moon Goddess to the ancient Chibacha Native Americans, who lived in what now is Columbia. Huitaca was depicted as an OWL and represents the spirit of joy and pleasure.








Another sexual and seductive image, pretty close to the image of the actress Nadiuska.





Goddess Chia as a loving mother. Clearly fits with the Mother of Conan we all know. -(Some would say there is even a "Edipus" kiss in this drawing.. and, heh, who would not be in love of his own mother if she was Nadiuska pig Razz )...




Now this Columbian Goddess idea is very interesting as this South American precolumbian goddess is related to the Celtic Triple Goddess -who is a Girl, a Mother and a Warrior. (Moon, Earth and Sea).





And in India (Asia):





And the next ones are the goddess in her CELTIC trinity depiction - (notice the OWL, again):











The "3 Witches" of Macbeth.





This Trinity is depicted in Celtic cultures in this already known symbol -that is presented in the menhir of the Cimmerian village:





And in Columbia, the indigenous tribes also had this celtic spirals in their stone art. Amazing!




All this would claim that the Cimmerians in the actual movie where also whorshippers of the Triple Goddess, not only of Crom.

Maybe the role of the Cimmerian fathers would be teaching their sons, in the adolescence, about the "male" myths and knowledge. That would fit perfectly with all ancient tribes and cultures. meanwhile the child has been under the protection of his mother, and shares his sensitivity and knowledge -and so, he whorsippes the Triple Goddess-, now comes the time for the child to become a Man, so the father takes him to the mountains and teaches him about the "Secret of Steel", and about Crom. (For me it looks that the scene in the movie is the first time the father talks about these topics to Conan. Maybe it is some kind of ritual initiation).





So, it's time for the kid to change his way, leaving his mother protection and view of the world, and thake the role of a man.

I also think it is a literal leaving of religion. Maybe the mother of Conan was the one who talked him earlier about Gods, about Crom and about the Goddess. Now his father tells him:

"Son, those where only tales that your mother told you for you to go to bed. Forget about Gods, forget about all that crap. The world is savage and cruel. And if there is really a God, he is not a Loving God. So, don't count on him. When you are dead, you are dead. Nothing more, nothing less. No after life, no hope for Heaven or Valhalla, nothing about that. You must learn the way of steel. That you can trust".





Somehow I can see a transition from matriachy to patriarchy here. We must remember that matriarchy was a kind of government widely used by the celts, and the transition to patriarchy is some kind of "covered matriarchy", as the role of "chief" is now played by a male, but as we all know the females still "rule in the shadow", so you can say that each sex take their place and everything goes in harmony. (Actually we don't live not in matriarchy, not in patriarchy, as the "chief" is capitalism and the rules are dictated by it).


Is interesting that Conan believing in Valhalla is depicted as one of the most innocent, naive and immature parts of Conan... As Subotai laughs about that belief, and looks at Conan as he was a 6 years old kid. It is very possible that the tale of "Crom asking the warriors the Secret of Steel" would be a tale that the mothers told to their children, to prepare them for the coming adolescence, where they must fight for survival and will be alone, without the protection of any real God. That way, they unconciously, subliminaly, are prepared to find that important "Secret of Stee"l, that is really that there isn't any God, and if you want to survive, then you count only with yourself.

So, being the father of Conan murdered, this leaning was not tought. So Conan must learn that from life experience, and from Doom.

Also, there's an interesting part in the Atlantean Tomb, where Conan is afraid of the dead king to resurrect. But... he realizes he won't, he is dead, and after death... there's nothing more. (I also thought that was the essence of that scene. That is what he is thinking, when he says: "CROM...". It's a lost of naivety, a mature Conan is being born, as the movie goes on and on).


"Crom! Do you really exist??"



"How can I be so fool... DEAD is DEAD, and there's nothing more... Crom was ONLY a child tale".


"Only in THIS I can trust".


As Conan said in his one and only pray of his life: "And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!"


It's also meaningful that the "afterlife" beliefs comes again from Valeria. She comes back, as an angel. I doubt Conan actually believed in what she said about "coming back from death to help you". But females have other kind of faith and spirituality, as they can believe and made possible what is impossible for males.




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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 6:52

Another very interesting thing I found is that comment of you about "Conan's father, Conan and Thulsa-Doom" being connected.

That is nothing less than another "Trinity", but now masculine. I will search for more info about these kind of male trinitys, but is clearly christian as "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit, here, is clearly "The Devil", who is called sometimes "The Spirit of Wisdom".

Doom doesn't mean the destruction of Conan, but more is his knowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 6:59

Interesting thing about Doom, he seems to abandon the "Riddle of Steel" after he learns all of its secrets and obtained all possible wealth in the world. Even the lose of the Eye of Serpent" doesnt make him too angry, he's very pompous about it too.

I like the line, "There was a time boy, when I searched for steel, steel meant more to me than gold or jewels".

I remember Milius mentioning somewhere I think, how Doom had to die cause he's corrupt or something to that effect..like the passing and rise of another more power force(in the form of CONAN).

Thulsa Doom seems to be drawn to Steel. Its like he one day decided to travel from Stygia all the way in the south, to all the way to North to Cimmeria, just for one Sword(which he eventually hung on a wall to collect dust as trophy)because he just had to possess it.

I sometimes thought, that it was the Eye of the Serpent, which made Doom transform and escape, because it was within his presence again. Moreover it seems to have played apart in Valeria's return.


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 7:19

Flaming Turd wrote:
Cromulus, I think that "alchemy" symbolism would be related to the idea of the "Riddle of Steel", not turning stones into gold, but turning them into steel. In the world of Milius, good steel is more important than gold. And you know, it is also related to the idea of the soul of a man turning into steel, also.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


That is the mother of Conan in the Stout storyboard - as you can see, there's an Owl in his shoulder.





Ancient Mesopotamian OWL figurine head - 5.000 years old.




Yes, its a standard universal symbol, the Owl. It I think goes back to the Stone Age, but which meaning and significance varies from group to group.

I think another way of look at it is that, in ancient Greece, owls were often seen as a symbol of good fortune, wisdom, and victory. The idea of the 'wise old owl' may have come into being from the association of the Little Owl with the Greek goddess of wisdom, Athena.

The the Italics/Romans saw owls as omens of impending doom and disaster. The hearing of the hoot of an owl indicated an imminent death. Its believed that the deaths of many famous Romans were predicted by the hoot of an owl, including Julius Caesar, Augustus & Agrippa.

So Conan's mother can be come kinda ironic twist . She can also share duel qualities like many of the movie characters, both Wisdom and Misfortune. Or maybe it was like warning alarm? LOL

Shame they got rid of the idea. I also rather liked the part in Stone's Script---the Vulture Bats, and Conan's father's dog, saving him and fighting with the bats. Not sure if they were supposed to be some kind a mutated birds, or Pterodactyls.

_________________________

Cimmerians were first mentioned by Homer, for any of the mythical people supposed to inhabit a land of perpetual darkness. Historical ones, were from the Black Sea or Caucasus..possibly Iranians..which I doubt Vikings or Celts were. Celts originated in the Alps.

Howard turned them into Irish Gaels, because many writers fancied themselves related to Scythians and dominating the ancient world and via 17th-century celticists, Anglo-Israelism along with Aryanism.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 8:02

And finally, the Stout image of the storyboard could be also clearly related to the goddess Athena (Greece), or Minerva (Rome).

And I think that would be the true meaning of the Owl in the Stout image. A mother who owns knowledge and wisdom.

Quote :

The owl of Minerva is the owl that accompanies Minerva in Roman myths, seen as a symbol of wisdom.

It was used by the nineteenth-century idealist philosopher G.W.F. Hegel to mean philosopher. Hegel noted that "the owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk" -- meaning that philosophy comes to understand a way of life just as it passes away. Philosophy cannot be prescriptive because it understands only in hindsight. He had in mind the transition from eighteenth-century feudalism to nineteenth-century commercialism and democracy.

"One more word about giving instruction as to what the world ought to be. Philosophy in any case always comes on the scene too late to give it... When philosophy paints its gray in gray, then has a shape of life grown old. By philosophy's gray in gray it cannot be rejuvenated but only understood. The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk." -- Hegel, Philosophy of Right (1820), "Preface"

"To consider any specific fact as it is in the Absolute, consists here in nothing else than saying about it that, while it is now doubtless spoken of as something specific, yet in the Absolute, in the abstract identity A = A, there is no such thing at all, for everything is there all one. To pit this single assertion, that "in the Absolute all is one," against the organized whole of determinate and complete knowledge, or of knowledge which at least aims at and demands complete development -- to give out its Absolute as the night in which, as we say, all crows are black -- that is the very naïveté of emptiness of knowledge." -- Hegel, Phenomenology of Mind (1807), "Preface"























The most important description of Minerva is that she is a Warrior Woman, same as the mother of Jorge Sanz. - (not strange why Conan would be in love with another warrior woman, as an adult, and not with any soft ass princess).





The cimmerian Owl would be probably a Snowy Owl.

Quote :
They stay in the Arctic during the winter unless their food sources are scarce. If they leave the arctic in the winter they overwinter in northern Greenland, the Canadian islands, northern Eurasia, Wrangel Island as well as North America.


A very interesting fact is the Snowy Owl can be found represented in cave paintings in Europe. (So, somehow a sacred symbol for prehistoric people... Cimmerians?).

It's a very beautufil animal.
















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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 8:10

Flaming Turd wrote:
"Claws - fangs - bones necklaces" are very typical as prehistoric jewelry in the Milius' movie fashions.

Yep! There was a piece I had written for this site a few years ago, not sure if was used or not..but theres a scene in the Cimmerian village, were mammoth tusks can been seen very briefly during the Vanir attack..its obviously they were hunting them.

Milius also mentioned he was inserting all types of dinosaurs, mommoths and sabretooth tigers into his mountain man movie called "Half the Sky", because he was getting so enthusiastic and interested in making CONAN instead. Whether or not any of this was retained for CONAN, it seems some was, but for some reason or another, either he or his crew became very self- conscience over using to much effects and creatures..which is probably why even the Neanderthals were dropped.

Also supposedly Milius didnt like Fantasy, Special Effects and didnt want to imitate the Sinbad movies which were popular at the time. Sounds a lil to much like BS to me, as much of the fantasy and creature effects were either deleted in Post production or altered drastically(ie shortened for cost cuts or time constraints).

PS

Turd, I dont think this one was every truly explained either...



Conan The Beastmaster? Maybe could've been the inspiration for his bird(phoenix on the shield,lol) Needle in the cartoon series


scratch Cool

-______________

Also remember Perseus and his automaton Owl, Bubo(means 'groin' in Greek,lol):




______________

Going back to our talks on cannibals and kitchens from before.

The 3 witches from "CLASH OF THE TITANS" also feast on human flesh, with boiling them in the cauldron while holding the "All seeing Eye":


*Zeus's throne(Serpent on one side and a Lion on the other):
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 9:38

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Interesting thing about Doom, he seems to abandon the "Riddle of Steel" after he learns all of its secrets and obtained all possible wealth in the world. Even the lose of the Eye of Serpent" doesnt make him too angry, he's very pompous about it too.

I like the line, "There was a time boy, when I searched for steel, steel meant more to me than gold or jewels".

I remember Milius mentioning somewhere I think, how Doom had to die cause he's corrupt or something to that effect..like the passing and rise of another more power force(in the form of CONAN).

Thulsa Doom seems to be drawn to Steel. Its like he one day decided to travel from Stygia all the way in the south, to all the way to North to Cimmeria, just for one Sword(which he eventually hung on a wall to collect dust as trophy)because he just had to possess it.

You made me remember this part of "Slaine", where the hero must take a spiritual trip in order to find his strength.

I feel that somehow, the "Slaine" comic is more related to the topics and spirit of the Milius movie than to REH or any other kind of old classic barbarian tale -that IMO are more about "machism" than honest and deep "masculine" mythology.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

First, the Hero is wondering about the difference between his tribe - who worship the female Triple Goddess - and their enemies - who worship a male Horned God-. Both are patriarchal religions, and Slaine is wondering then why our tribe, if they claim to be a femenine religion, still let the women apart.

The druid tells him that, while they still worship the Goddess, they are afraid of her and she must be controlled. They only worship the "good part" of the Goddess. They look at her only as a protective mother, and foget about the other dark and agressive parts, because that part can destroy males. It's better to be a soft male, suffer pain and embrace emptiness... A sumise, a slave, a man with no will.

Slaine finds that is not really a worship of a female divinity, as it is machism, because a female can't be controlled, or owned, by any man. And that machism is the essence of their enemies. So, he finds his religion is exactly the same as the one of the Lord Drunes, but covered with hypocresy and lies. That "sheep" religion he has is not strong. It doesn't work.

He has the balls to make a search to find the true essence of the worshipping of the female divinity. (And that way, he hopefully will find his own masculine strenght).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Slaine has machist desires, of possesion and glory. BUT he has them because he wants to help and protect his people -(the difference with a true dictator like the Lord Drunes or Thulsa Doom, who wants that power only for their personal glory, and don't give a fuck about their people).





(An interesting topic, as they need "ancient atlantean weapons" to defeat their enemies).







So, after the Hero tell the druid to "go and fuck yourself", the druid now makes a revelation: if he finds the way to worship correctly the Triple Goddess, then he will find his own masculine strenght called "The Horned God".

But the druid tells him AGAIN that males become crazy ruled by women, and the "Horned God" is a machist and dictator monster controlled by witches.



But Slaine say that "machism and dictatorship" is what they already have, camoufled with lies. So, the true "Horned God" power MUST BE something else.

He goes to the spiritual world. Now he must fight against his machist desires of Controlling and Owning.





When he is pure, now he can meet the Goddess.



The Goddess explains the difference between the "Solar God" (machism) and the true "Horned God" (the true masculine energy):








As it is described, the true masculine energy would be related to DIONISSUS, as he is not taking anything serioulsy, enjoys pleasure, wine, laughing and sex as the essence of existence. (I think about Conan, Valeria, and Subotai). (And again, is the description of a Nietzschean superhuman).

Meanwhile the opposite would be Thulsa-Doom -(who has the apparence of a Dionissian God, but is not, as he doesn't really enjoy sex, or wine, or pleasure of any kind, and is only REALLY interested in Power, Conquering and Authority).

And, as you said, Cromulus, Thulsa-Doom is already past and gone. His time is over -(as he is over thousand years old)-. He would have probably been a very strong superhuman in the past, maybe very Dionissian, sexual and joyful. He somehow feels he is loosing his real strenght with the years and THAT is the reason he is looking for new power in the Riddle of Steel. Now he finds he is better in Dictatorship, and as the leader of a Sect.

Conan must do the same thing that Slaine had to do: become the new SUPERHUMAN ("Horned God") and replace the old one.






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Actually MILIUS' Conan NEVER had any desire of becoming a King. He starts without any kind of dream, but REVENGE. He NEVER mentioned dreams of glory, or machist desires. The one who has those is, as you clearly exposed, Cromulus, Thulsa Doom.

In fact, the one who could put on him the dream of becoming a King was the "Wolf-Witch". And she is clearly a tempter, a seductive liar that really wants to EAT him, not to help him. So, putting that dream in his mind would be a way to make the warrior self confident enough to eat him without a fight.

It would be possible that she used that same trick with other victims.


(Same way he was victorious in the gladiator pit, he was because he didn't care if he lived or dies. That is why he allways won.) The fact that Conan actually become a King I think is not because he really desires it, but because he don't give a goddam fuck. That is the only way he can really become one -in mythological terms-.



Now, this is the reason why I allways say that the glory of Milius Conan is not really in him becoming a King, and I love the way he ends, leaving the princess and going away looking for his own destiny. He is allready a King. He don't need a kingdom, he don't need a princess. He is allready a king, even though he has no throne.


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PS: Cromulus, the "Horned God" is described as the "Master of the Beasts". He is one with them. He don't control them. He don't need to. He simply understand them. He is one -(a lion in Conan's case, also in Nietzschen Superhuman simbology). Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 10:20

Never saw this comic before. Looks alright. Rather reminds me of "Fire and Ice". Which wasnt a bad toon, but the only character I liked was Dark Wolf. There was also a Succubus witch in her hut..probably well cause it was written by Conway and Thomas.

*Milius mentions also how each movie was to have had a major theme and be about something. The 1st movie was to have been about raw Strength, the 2nd movie to have been about Consequence, and the 3rd movie was to have been about Passing of the Torch.

Without CONAN's narrations the movie's story is completely different dont forget. The released movie, its more simpler and fast paced. He's nearly like an innocent child when we see him being released by Red Hair for a purpose he doesnt understand but somehow Red Hair does. In the scripts, he did enjoy the Victories and wanted more glory as he was living the life of an athlete. How he kills Red Hair and watches him die is really a completely different character. CONAN simply took advantage of the earthquake and killed the man he hated but also the man largely responsible for forging him into a man, really nothing spiritual there. CONAN also stumbles into debauchery, drugs and petty thievery for profit, loses his main focus primarily cause he becomes more and more arrogant. As he lost site of his destiny and purpose starting in the Gladiator Pits, so CONAN had to be taught a lesson..and that lesson was learned on the Tree of Woe.

CONAN the Assassin filled with over confidence, or marrying into royalty(in the scripts there was a small love triangle thing happening) or swayed by a kings money could not defeat Thulsa Doom..only CONAN THE WARRIOR could.

If you watch closely the look on CONAN's face when the Wolf Witch mentions to him he'll be a "King by his own hand", Conan's attention is quite lit. Her temptations nearly cost Conan his life. In Stone's script she's more like an agent of Set..she even makes a small return as a Shade in the tent before the big end battle when Conan is alone by himself.

The whole thing with CONAN THE KING story leaving his kingdom to his son and disappearing by either not returning from a lone walk during a strange storm or some lone new adventure to never being heard from again..is reminiscent of Romulus the founder of ROME. Both Romulus and Hercules, were to die a mortal and be reborn a god.

Even with Valeria returning twice and watching over CONAN , and even Conan being brought back( possibly twice as in the KING CONAN script) is all part of the classic Hero to Immortality tale.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 11:03

That puts more light in the whole thing. I think we can't deny Conan's desires of Power and Glory. Somehow, these are inherent to the male energy and are as natural as the desires for love and peace.

Important thing is to see if the character shares both sides. A one dimensional character who only desires to become an immortal king never would be interesting, and actually would never become a king -if he doesn't have a "tricky" way to become one-.

I hold the idea of him not having special desire for Power. "Will to power" as Nietzsche explained is no the same as "Hungry for power".

Nietzschean "Will to Power" is more related to the idea of following the energy that impulses everything in this world -including humans- to change and transform into something stronger and wiser.

It is not related to the idea of "Hunger for social power" like being loved by everyone, and adored as a King or as a immortal God. These are more related to the idea of "self-preservation", extended after death. And "Will to Power" goes beyond self-preservation, as that is not the primal objective. The primal objective is risking one-self in order to achieve more strenght. If you survive and then everybody loves you and whorships you, is an indirect consequence.

Quote :
"Physiologists should think before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength — life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results". Here, Nietzsche thinks he is supported by the many instances in which people and animals are willing to risk their lives in order to promote their power (for example, ancient Greek heroes or "masters" often died young in battle, but achieved great power in the process).

I personally dislike the "classic" tale of the hero becoming "a legend". It's boring and not too deep, IMHO. It doesn't mean I dislike the movie, I don't, and I love the "epic" tone of all of it, and of course I love the final image of Conan as a primordial King in his throne. But it's not the main reason I like it, and the way the character has become with time turning into some kind of God, when he is really just a man, I also dislike.

I prefer a human Conan, with his weakness, than a superhero from marvel.

But that's me.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 12:09

Yeah I know what you mean. Problem with CONAN is thats its fantasy, and well, Neo-Mythology. The hero becoming a god is classic, but its usually well deserved..like Hercules lighting himself on the pyre after realizing his sins. Hercules is the god of Strength. he paved the way for mortal man, rid the earth of monsters bydefending us. Most if not all Classic Mythology is of moral tales and lessons besides right?!



Decamp's CONAN I think ends up somehow becoming Quetzalcoatl/Cortez or something, and Conn becomes Conan II,lol.

CONAN's first appearance is as the middle aged king, suffering divine dreams and premonitions. Very little is explained on how he got there, its just taken for granted he's just the typical strong barbarian king on a foreign Civilized throne ruling the mightiest of Kingdoms with a heavy though always just hand. Its really no accident nor mere chance that Howard wanted Conan like some Medieval invincible fantasy folk hero culled right out've Geoffrey of Monmouth's Arthurian legend..with the Briton King conquering the continent of Europe and even Iceland and Greenland with god on his side-- Taking on the Romans, Gauls, Iberians, Berbers, Assyrians, Babylonians, Saxons ect.. and then sitting on the most Powerful thrown of the known World.. its purely feel good Mythology which always works for an audience.

Much of Conan's kingly stories is all just re-written Kull of Atlantis yarns. One of the major reasons I prefer Kull to Conan, is that theres more depth to the character and more interesting, however slower paced stories. To many of CONAN stories are the same recycled storylines, with a new name to the evil Sorceror..normally Stygia seemd to have just shit them out for Conan to step on. LOL


I never liked the idea of Conan ever having a son, that part've of the 3rd movie turned me off.. the end of the movie series shouldve ended with Conan fighting assassin's in his chamber with an approaching horde at the gates...leave it ambiguous. I would not of minded the Wolf Witch barring his seed from the first film and she raises a Demonic Demi-God which eventually conquers most of Hyborian and call his kingdom Acheron. So a sorta Mordred vs Conan if you will.


Usually in real life also even today, heroes even or now celebrities become gods, or demi-gods. The age old basic human need to worship still lingers. Sometimes even money is worshiped. The having of folk heroes, loosely based on the exploits of a certain soldier or whatever getting associated with certain deities or earthy manifestations. I think most ancient Gods were once regular human warriors and kings whose memory traveled around and changed with time, and many stories depict this kinda thing too. Even king Arthur never dies, is just sleeping.. king

Milius wanted to tell a tale of Mythology, like what if Conan really existed, this is his tale..if wouldve happened but theres the element of typical camp fire supernatural. I think one of the un-used ideas which was gonna be used for the movie or just being toyed with, was that modern archaeologist found some inscription telling of Conan's story, in Russia or someplace in the East. The movie was to have opened also with the animated modern World, transforming into the Hyborian Age.

*I also didnt like the idea of CONAN being resurrected twice, thats over the top and unneeded rehashing. Supposedly that was inserted in the KING CONAN script by the Wachowski bros insistence to give Conn/Kon more screen time.

_______________

Even Perseus in CLASH OF THE TITANS does the pose before slaying the two-headed dog:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 10 Jan - 21:17

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Most if not all Classic Mythology is of moral tales and lessons besides right?!

Hm, not sure about that, friend. If any, they are depictions of every part of the human nature. We have every personality and character in the Gods of the Olympus, and in the different heroes, companions and even in the monsters.

The fact is that even "fairy tales" for children have a very savage side. The tales of the Grimm brothers, taking an example, have been "lighted" and turned more "child-friendly" with ages. Originally, the main characters, usually children, where actually murdered by their own parents, eaten by witches, and suffered thousand and thousand of other horribles crimes. Revenge and passionate feelings where also the main motive of the main characters, when not simply survival.

It's uncommon in early tales to find a morality that we actually can relate to the one we have in the modern world. I think it is very probable that originally they served as moral tales or lessons, as you say. But I think that now we can't take mythology as a moral lesson, no way. Actually, any kind of moral lesson is highly "sanctioned" by the readers in modern literature.

I think the power of myths is that they are free of morality. Reason why we enjoy the world of Conan, that is not "politically correct", or we enjoy watching horror movies where insecure actresses are slayed like chicken. The myths are the kind of storytelling that is more close to the symbolic part of the psyche, that is the part that creates dreams each night. Dreams don't have morality, and actually, mythology doesn't either, at least for us modern people.

In this symbolic part of us, of course we love to believe that Death can be beaten, and that a simple boy of a prehistoric village can become the King of the World. We also love to see how a man is transformed into a snake, or a toad, and we love to see princess and knights and dragons and phoenix birds.

I think there is just something we need.

But it must be well made. If not, it is a real big crap. I feel that it is well made when I feel that the story made me discover something about how I, as a human, am made. And how the reality of the nature is. In these kind of mythos, that discovering is not literal. Is symbolic. But it is very powerful, when the story is well made and the symbols are clear. That is what, I guess, could be called art.

Some people would claim that the only true reason they watch movies (or read, or even listen to music) is because they wanna have a good time. Not thinking, not searching for any kind of deep or spiritual stuff. That is common in most people, as I have heard that thousand of times.

I allways answer that I want both. Most of the time. I also enjoy idiot things like "Alien vs Predator" very much. But I would not call that art ever. Razz

Even when people enjoy following their "modern gods", sport athletes, famous actors, whatever, they are actually moved by deep desires that could not be councious about -I am not a psychologist so I don't know what "deep desires" could be, but I know they are-.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 11 Jan - 16:54

Now, I think this could be interesting.


http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC12/Campbell.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 11 Jan - 19:19

Ron Cobb and Aleister Crowley:







Quote :
The unicursal hexagram,is one of the key symbols within Thelema, the tradition founded by Aleister Crowley in the early part of the twentieth-century. Crowley did not invent the unicursal hexagram, the emblem was created by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and adapted by Crowley for his own use.

Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn,
occult-oriented fraternal organization established by the Freemasons in England (1888), led by S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1854–1917). The order's rituals were derived from writings by Fred Hockley, and members had to demonstrate competence in mysticism. The group influenced authors William B. Yeats and Algernon Blackwood. The most famous member, Aleister Crowley, joined in 1898 and founded the rival Argenteum Astrum (1905) after his expulsion in 1900.

http://www.answers.com/topic/unicursal-hexagram-1

__________

Crowley's Thoth Tarot Deck:





^
Quote :
The Tower is numbered sixteen and shows a tower struck by lightning, with raging fires within and the top of the tower falling. There are usually figures falling, head-first, from the ruins.

The Tower shows us a basic fact of spiritual life - the power of the Gods can strike unexpectedly to break down all the long-established patterns and assumptions that we have taken for granted for so long.

Sometimes our limited vision of reality blocks our understanding and perception of truth. We begin to believe that the Tower - which we have been building higher and higher in order to reach the Gods - is the only reality. A cataclysmic force is needed to destroy this fantasy so as to allow us to recognise the powers which surround us. When this happens we must react with hope, letting go of our fears. The highest truths can now be realised.

http://www.angelpaths.com/majors/tower.html
_________________

BTW Turd, those SLAIN sea demons reminds me of the Mutant Monsters from the "Leviathan" movie:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 9:49

Interestingly there is also a "Temple of Set", a Satan worshiping religious community founded in 1975.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set

They also claim they are leading experts on the so-called "Left-Handed" path..which so happens to use this :



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path

____________________________

Lotus and Lotus-Easters also isnt the invention of RE Howard:


Quote :
In Greek mythology, the Lotophagi (Greek Λωτοφάγοι, lotus-eaters) were a race of people from an island near North Africa dominated by "lotus" plants. The lotus fruits and flowers were the primary food of the island and were narcotic, causing the people to sleep in peaceful apathy.

The relevant part from the Odyssey (Book IX, translated by Samuel Butler):

"I was driven thence by foul winds for a space of nine days upon the sea, but on the tenth day we reached the land of the Lotus-eaters, who live on a food that comes from a kind of flower. Here we landed to take in fresh water, and our crews got their mid-day meal on the shore near the ships. When they had eaten and drunk I sent two of my company to see what manner of men the people of the place might be, and they had a third man under them. They started at once, and went about among the Lotus-eaters, who did them no hurt, but gave them to eat of the lotus, which was so delicious that those who ate of it left off caring about home, and did not even want to go back and say what had happened to them, but were for staying and munching lotus with the Lotus-eaters without thinking further of their return; nevertheless, though they wept bitterly I forced them back to the ships and made them fast under the benches. Then I told the rest to go on board at once, lest any of them should taste of the lotus and leave off wanting to get home, so they took their places and smote the grey sea with their oars."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotophagi

Hey, and who can forget Tanya the Lotus Eater from "Revenge of the Pink Panther"?



She was a hotty back then..Twisted Evil


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 12:06

This is not too related to Milius' CTB, but well... Rolling Eyes Yeah, they look the same, as I also think that Leviathan things where highly lovecraftian -tentacles and fishy looking...

There was a spanish movie that had the same kind of creatures, called Dagon -from Brian Yuzna- a free adaptation of "Shadow over Innsmouth". It's very free, but if you are not too demanding, you can enjoy it. (I'm not sure if I actually talked about it in the "Dagoth" post).

Surprisingly, very good acting there Shocked . Well, the main actor is a Jeffrey Combs clone mixed with some Bruce Campbell moments, but beyond that the blonde girl is sweet hot as hell, and also there is Macarena Gomez, a Innsmouth girl who actually is one of the best actresses in Spain -same she only play secondary roles in movies and tv series-. She is not a classical beauty, but I find her extremely hot.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1029/782803241_06a40e0d80_o.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/77355036.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1938DCDF9EF37AEBD73EA5EE412A2005EA8284831B75F48EF45


Also the movie was the last one of Francisco Rabal, one of the greatest actors ever.

http://www.fantaterror.com/Criticas/Dagon%204.jpg

http://www.pollanetsquad.it/asp/attori/img/280_00.jpg


The point is, these Slaine underwater monsters are clearly, as the lovecraft ones where, repressed desires that take the shape of monsters. In Lovecraft, for example, is clear how Dagon is "sleeping" in the deeps of the ocean, but one day he emerges and the first thing he do is embracing a giant phalic monolite. Clearly a metaphor of a very sexual repressed Lovecraft.

The underwater world is a methaphor of the human unconcious. As it was back in precolumbian amerindian times, when aztecs, mayna and toltecs believed that CHAC or TLALOC, god of rain, lived underwater. He was depicted with the shape of a demon.

And is higly related to snakes -as snakes and serpentine lines were aquatic symbols-.



Serpentine motifs in the Temple of the Snake:




So, CHAC or TLALOC is allways depicted HOLDING A SNAKE.






Human sacrifices where made for CHAC, mostly children and virgin young girls, in the last times of the mayan culture as great drought happened, so they tried to make a deal with Chac. Changing blood for rain. The most common practice was to make self-sacrifices, of blood. But murdering people was also practiced.

Aztec cannibal feast in honour of a God (The kitchen/the orgy):




Blood sacrifices to TLALOC:




Altar of sacrifices -(usually, the heart of the victim was removed using a knife):









The sacrifices where made by the High Priest, called AHAU-ACAN. That name meant "LORD SNAKE", because he was very powerful and feared.






Guess in the movie he would be YARO, then changed to REXOR.




These ritual murders were made, sometimes, in the top of pyramids -clearly "Mountains of power". I wonder if some sacrifices were also made in Thulsa's Mountain, or they were only practiced in the shadow.






But the most common practice related to TLALOC was sending him directly the flesh. So, children and young girls were thrown to the deeps of the underwater, where TLALOC lived. In mesoamerica "cenotes" are very common. Natural pits, with subterranian water. Victims were thown there, they drank and die.














High priest throwing a victim into the cenote, and below the water, CHAC/TLALOC awaiting for his food.




The victims could have been in some kind of mystical trance, as meeting with a God would be something great for them. Plus, probably were drugged with very strong substances like ayahuasca, peyote or psilocybe mushrooms. These could be eaten, drinked, or intriduced as an enema. So the fear of dying would not stop them, and also would make them have allucinations to make the horrible trip more beautiful. The fact it is probable thet they jumped, by their own.



Mayan vase for ritual drugs.







I think the scene of the sacrifice in the "Tower of the Serpent" is pretty reminiscent of these CHAC mayan sacrifices, where the virgin jumped into a pit, and was "eaten" by a giant snake.



TLALOC/CHAC was sometimes depicted directly with the form of a giant snake (a viper, with two fangs, as in this aztec sculpture):






Another highly interesting discovering is that TLALOC's face was made up with two confronting snakes!!!



You can see the confronting snakes here again, making up his eyes and nose:





Comparison:




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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 12:29

Well. In some fan-written article I read that Lovecrfat's CTHULHU was created inspired by the ancient precolumbian God of Rain. I am not sure about that, but the similarities between the words CTHULHU and CHAC-TLALOC is pretty clear. Also the sounds.

And also in their looking. Comparisons of precolumbian CHAC/TLALOC with Lovecraft's Cthulhu:




CHAC/TLALOC comparison with a Cthulian creature from the movie "Dagon":




The tentacles are clearly serpentine. And going back to the start point, the other Loveacraftian submarine entity, Dagon itself, also has tentacles, related to snakes. This image is pretty close to the Leviathan creature.



Also, this "Deep One", aquatic humanoid from "The Shadow over Innsmouth" tale, is very similar to the Slaine "machist" demons.




Now, there was a real historical DAGON, -god of the Sea, half human, half fish- adored originally in ancient MESOPOTAMIA and BABILONIA. Land of Ziggurats, as you exposed, Cromulus -another clear depiction of Thulsa Doom's "Mountains of Power".








the Babilonian god Dagon was turned into another form of the Devil in christian "Demonology" -in Theology, the study of the demons from Hell-. Also known as DAGONE, his power is to influence the minds of his enemies. (A power closely related to Thulsa Doom).

Philistine depiction of DAGON, as it appears in a (unknown) show of "Sanso and Dalila". Notice he is holding a great snake.



Interesting, as it looks pretty close to the image Cromulus posted of this demon statue that supposely was inside the "Tower of the Serpent".



That comes to some other comparisons -(more like reminders of what we already know)-.

The fisrt is with CERNUNNOS, the celtic god of fertility, also identified with SATAN by the medieval christian priests. As we know, this celtic God holds a snake in one hand, and "torque" in the other, a symbol made with a snake with two heads confronting each other:



And to these images Cromulus have been posting of the "Sabbatic Goat" image drawn by Eliphas Levi -(19th century occultist). Also called "Baphomet". It has in his penis a CADUCEUS -(another depiction of the "2 snakes confronting each other")-. These are pictures of H.R.Giger. Notice the CADUCEUS below, in the second image.





Quote :
The CADUCEUS, an esoteric symbol picturing two serpents coiled around a rod, is one of the most ancient symbols in the Middle East. Serpents always carried very opposite connotations. They were beautifully decorated creatures who symbolized wisdom. In many cases they also carried a deadly venom and their bite killed. The ancient Hebrews saw the serpent in the Garden of Eden as the instrument of humanity's fall from innocence. While in the wilderness, many were bitten by serpents and, according to the story, Moses lifted up a brass image of a serpent coiled around a rod (Num. 21:8-9). Those who looked upon the serpent were healed. Throughout Mesopotamia, the serpent was associated with healing deities. Thus did it find its most common use as the symbol of physicians. While probably originating in Mesopotamia, the caduceus found its way eastward to India and westward into the Mediterranean. It is associated with the use of paired serpents in general such as those on the Egyptian Pharaoh's headpiece or the serpents coiled around the body of Mithras. In Greek lore, Hermes (the Roman Mercury) came upon two serpents fighting. He thrust his rod between them. They coiled around the rod and remained attached to it. Thus, the caduceus emerged as the symbol of messenger of the God. In Greek thought, the caduceus acquired wings. In India, the caduceus became associated with the kundalini or serpent power, the latent power believed to lie as a coiled serpent at the base of the spine. As spiritual consciousness awakens, the energy travels up the spine to the top of the head. In Roman thought, the caduceus was a symbol of moral equilibrium and good conduct.



Over the centuries, the caduceus was brought into the esoteric Gnostic tradition and reappears as symbolic of power and the balance between positive and negative or darkness and light. It has a special place in the rich iconography of speculative Freemasonry. As Eastern and Western symbology has mixed and merged in the twentieth century, the ancient caduceus has emerged as a symbol of enlightenment and acquisition of the ancient wisdom.

Ancient Turkish caduceus.




Mercury inventing the caduceus.





Mercury and the caduceus.









And now, for something completely different: Pope is wearing the old mitre of the so hated by christians demon Dagon. Mr. Green

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 13:07

Yeah, I used to get a"Lovecraft" vibe from this one too..


One of my favorite Civilizations, Minoan Crete:








The god Moloch or Baal is said to be related to Dagon..some claim also Zeus. The bull was sacred to Crete btw. Supposedly Baal and Moloch are Sun dieties.




This image below reminds me of something out've the movie, maybe near the Tower of the Serpent? Yes, there's a slightly shortened version of it..seen soon as Conan and Subotai walk into the Tower's entrance and find Valeria. It has a bunch've candles lit up, and its surrounded with roundish triangles imitating the sun's rays and brightness.


Interestedly, Baal is wearing the Mycenaean horned helmet..and the Philistines were Greeks
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 20:15

You mean this?


It woul be nice to find what it exactly could be... You think it could be an stylized version of a minotaur, or some kind of "Horned entity"?

The "Sun" circle I think is clear, also the triangles as the rays. The curves below, hmm, I think these could be or water flowing from the sun... (??) or maybe a "mountain"...


----------------------


By the way, I just remember these "sea monsters". Clearly related to the lovecraft "Deep Ones", Dagon and Leviathan, or what.







Apparently, they symbolized the "dark forces" of nature that caused the Cataclism of Atlantis.

We must remember that the energy of the Earth is often called "The Serpent" or "The Dragon".

It can bring life, but also is a destructive side, when it gets "angry". Volcanoes, and specially in this case, tidal waves.


Some Lovecraftian "Deep Ones".
Quote :
Lovecraft describes the Deep Ones as a race of undersea-dwelling humanoids whose preferred habitat is deep in the ocean (hence their name). However, despite being primarily marine creatures, they can come to the surface and can survive on land for some time. All Deep Ones are immortal; none die except by accident or violence. They are said to serve the beings known as Father Dagon and Mother Hydra, as well as Cthulhu.They are opposed by mysterious beings known as the Old Ones, whose powerful magic can keep them in check.














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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 12 Jan - 21:08

Yeah thats the one..perhaps Cobb or Milius felt the Baphomet statue was too close to a Biblical movie(which is obvious), and dropped the Baal statue and replaced with a simplified version with that version. Also of the course the bull's horns shows the moon crescent, which is all over Rexor (and Doom).

Supposedly Milius didnt want to have CONAN look to close to other period piece movies as much as possible.

The Atlantean sword, is definitely another reference, absolutely. Those "Sea Gargoyles" or whatever they dubbed them.


Piranha's were part've the inspiration as well I think:


___________________________



Also I've been looking at Magna Grecian and Greek shield patterns:








http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/se/~luv20009/Greek_shield_patterns_1.html

They also used the single Serpent--Rexor's scabbard:


Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

Found this same style coiled Serpent on Roman coins, its also used by modern day Gnostic's:

____________________________-

On the topic of Fish symbolism, note the Seahorses all over Conan:





Its the symbolism of Neptune/Poseidon(god also of the Atlanteans)..Dagon was also linked to Neptune.




Quote :
HIPPOKAMPOI (or Hippocamps) were the horses of the sea. They were depicted as composite creatures with the head and fore-parts of a horse and the serpentine tail of a fish. In mosaic art they were often covered with green scales and had fish-fin manes and appendages. The ancients believed they were the adult-form of the fish we call the "sea-horse". Hippokampoi were the mounts of Nereid nymphs and sea-gods, and Poseidon drove a chariot drawn by two or four of the beasts.

Other fish-tailed land animals which appear in ancient art include the "Leokampos" (fish-tailed lion), "Taurokampos" (fish-tailed bull), "Pardalokampos" (fish-tailed leopard), and "Aigikampos" (fish-tailed goat). The last was the form of the constellation Capricorn. Fabulous creatures of this type were also believed to inhabit the Indian Ocean, see Ketea Indikoi.
ENCYCLOPEDIA

HIPPOCAMPE and HIPPOCAMPUS (Hippokampê and Hippokampos), the mythical sea-horse, which, according to the description of Pausanias (ii. 1), was a horse, but the part of its body down from the breast was that of a sea monster or fish. The horse appears even in the Homeric poems as the symbol of Poseidon, whose chariot was drawn over the surface of the sea by swift horses. The later poets and artists conceived and represented the horses of Poseidon and other marine divinities as a combination of a horse and a fish. (Hom. Il. xlii. 24, 29; Eurip. Androm. 1012; Virg. Georg. iv. 389; Philostr. Imag . i. 8; Stat. Theb. ii. 45.)

Source: Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology.

http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Hippokampoi.html
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 10:30

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Never realized about the seahorses over King Conan... Shocked First second I thought they were made with photoshop or something. Laughing

Amazing. The level of details here is just amazing. The only purpose of adding these seahorses to the King image would be only for symbolistic/artistic purposes, just being faithful to the original concepts and spirit. That is so uncommon in Hollywood movies... I mean, no doubt they didn't add these seahorses to make Conan look tougher. It even has some kind of surrealistic ridiculous quality that make me love it. :)


Ok.


Looks like the hippocampus is somehow related to the idea of foetus -as I read in your post that people believed that the fishes were just the young-form of creatures that will turn into real horses with fish tail, as adults-.

Also, check out this comparison. Thinking about the size of these little creatures, and the comparison of the images, they are clearly symbols of foetus.




So, these seahorses all over King Conan would perfectly be their incomming children -or fertility "fetiches" added by the courts priests, in order to make him more fertile-.

Other thing that made me think about the possible "fertility symbolism" is the actual high fertility of these fishes. They have tons of children.


Ey, it's true. In China they use them since 100.000 years ago, as a FERTILITY medicine. So, we got it. :)


Also, in the symbolism of the fish, the FATHER actually receive the eggs in his womb, from the mother.




He fertilize the eggs in his own womb, and the children come out. So it's the father who get's "pregnant".


...


I can't help it, I just have this idiot image in my mind:







Now, coming back to the symbolism.

"Males incubate the eggs received from females in a closed brood pouch (= marsupium). Females do not play any parental care after mating".

Well, now this is highly interesting, as the sons of the King would be teached just by him, as the mother/mothers would not play any role in the education of the princes.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, as a mythological symbol, I founded this:


An folk tale called "The Fisherman's Widow" tells that an old woman once saved a white hippocampus from dying. It offered then three wishes to her. The third gift she asked was Death.

The white hippocampus said it could not give her death, but took her to the deeps of the ocean, to ATLANTIS. (Apparently, hippocampus never allowed a human to ride them. This was the only known case, maybe because the woman saved its life).





Quote :
Never looking back, the old woman walked into the sea, and found she could breath as comfortably as she did on land. They descended the stairs for a long time, finally reaching the Land Beneath the Sea, which we call ATLANTIS.


The old woman had never seen such beauty. The light turned the bottom of the sea into an aquamarine paradise. A profusion of sea anemones fluttered and waved in the underwater gardens, colorful fishes swam everywhere, and many mermaids and mermen passed by, each riding a white hippocampus. Finally the widow and the hippocampus entered a magnificent palace made of pearls and shiny shells. Inside, on a huge golden throne, sat the handsome Prince of ATLANTIS, surrounded by his court. The hippocampus bowed, and related the story and the widow’s request.

The Prince listened attentively, smiled, and said:

"This is a wonderful story, my hippocampus friend. But where is the kind old woman who saved you life and wanted nothing for herself in return?"

"Why, Your Highness, I am the old woman," said the widow, astonished.

Everyone laughed, and the Prince handed her a jeweled mirror; from it smiled the face of her youth, when she was the village beauty and life was full of the promise of joy.

"No one grows old in ATLANTIS," said the Prince kindly, "and no one dies unless they want to. Look around you and decide. Do you still want death, my dear? Or would you rather live?"

"I would rather live, Your Highness, since you have given me the opportunity of a new life," said the widow. "But what will become of me? I do not want to go back to my village. My life there is finished."

"For a hundred years I have been looking for a special woman to be my wife, as it is the custom of the Royal House of ATLANTIS to choose their spouses from the World above the Sea. If I search the world for another hundred years I will not find anyone as selfless, wise, and beautiful as you," said the Prince. "Will you be my wife and the Princess of ATLANTIS?"

And so it was.

And in the old village they have erected a statue in her honor, which can still be seen today, if you just go far enough up the coast of this little Greek Island where it all happened, long ago.

After this folk tale, I founded this. Apparently the "seahorse" fish is related to the Great Mother, again we got the Goddess... Not weird if we remember the seahorse as a symbol of foetus. They are clearly images of fertility related to GAIA or to the Female Spirit.



GAIA and SEAHORSES fishes. (Woodcarving, 1935).


Apparently, they were also very common in Etruscan mythology, and widely depicted in the tombs, as they somehow represented some kind of symbol for the afterlife -most probably, the vehicle for the souls in their trip to the Underworld-:

"Tomb of the Baron", (500 Before Christ)






Now, related to the image of KING CONAN:

A roman SEA-LION mosaic in the Baths of Neptune.





"The mythic hippocamp has been used as HERALDIC IMAGE aparticularly since the Renaissance, most often in the ARMORIAL BEARINGS of people and places with maritime associations. However, in a blazon, the terms hippocamp and hippocampus now refer to the real animal we call a seahorse, and the terms seahorse and sea-horse refer to the mythological creature. The above-mentioned fish hybrids are seen less frequently".

Heraldic sea-horse:



LEFT: University of Newcastle (Austrlia) - RIGHT: Kingdom of Drachenwald



LEFT: Rochester Upon Medway City Council - RIGHT: Brianavonder Ostwache

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 13:14

I actuallized the post about "prehistoric pendant necklaces", cause some photos were deleted by some unknown reason. Also added some more interesing stuff.

Plus, Cromulus, check out this drawing of the Witch Wolf:



Same "crown of claws", again.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Also I found another pic of "Excalibur" that fits pretty close with the Milius' movie:




In the Slaine comic, the hero must find the "MOON SWORD", and ancient ATLANTEAN weapon. It is also said that is nothing less than the EXCALIBUR from the Arthuric myth.



They say that it doesn't actually cut their victims, rather "their bodies rip themselves open to receive it".

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 14:10

Was just thinking again, that the lion on King Conan's chest, can also be the Leokampos:




Hercules and his association with the lion, can further be taken to the sea, because he was reknown sailor and plunderer. He had many adventures in the Mediterranean and even Black Sea..possible also the Atlantic itself.

Here's a good tale of him toppling a vile king in Egypt, one can easily insert Conan and Stygia and have a short "Howard Yarn":

Quote :
BOUSIRIS (or Busiris) was a king of Aigyptos (Egypt) who, in accordance with an oracle, sacrificed foreigners to the gods. Herakles, as he was traveling through the region in his quest for the golden apples, was arrested and brought before the altar. However, he quickly broke free of his bonds and slew the barbarous king.

http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Bousiris.html

Conan was also supposed be figuratively lion/Amra of the sea, was his totem(which Howard a tiger for Kull of Atlantis). Cobb and Milius no doubt picked up this all, and gave Conan the protection of Neptune and his son Triton. Wouldnt been nice to see how they would've handled Conan sea voyages..as Milius' KING CONAN script featured Conan the Pirate..also William Stout supposedly also wrote a Pirate script for a proposed sequel back in the 80's.

I wish Stout couldve gave this board a copy, wouldve been nice to read.

_________________

Minoan ship with the sea horse motif and Sea goddess..somehow is related to fertility:



Greek coin--think Spartan:


One thing I can figure, is that in Milius' mind, Conan was an Alpha Male, remember all the Mongol or Hunnic females that were being supplied to him when he was a captive..they gave him only the best women, as those women were supposed to be upper class and royalty. This rather echoes the story of Hercules at the palace of King Thespios, who encouraged Hercules to make love to his daughters, all fifty of them, in one night. They all got pregnant and all bore sons. Many of the kings of ancient Greece traced their lines to one or another of these, notably the kings of Sparta and Macedon.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 17:36

Interesting thing on the Atlantean, I had a thread on here, of it being made out've Adamantine..metal of the gods. Was a theory of mine, which can be found here for further elaborations:
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http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/conan-the-barbarian-f3/the-atlantean-sword-made-out-ve-adamantium-t888.htm

On Excalibur, I wanted to pick up this author's book, but for one reason or another, never got around to it. He had a website, but its offline now..no pictures are showing up which sucks balls, but thankfully it can be viewed in cached format yet:

Excalibur Recreated


Quote :

What would the historical Arthur’s sword really have looked like? In the Arthurian romances Excalibur is often depicted as a medieval broadsword. However, if Arthur lived around AD 500 then his sword would have been of a very different design. Military leaders of this era would have used the spatha, a cavalry sword originally designed by the Romans. It would have been around two feet long with a stunted cross guard. In 1993 Graham Phillips and Martin Keatman asked the Queen’s sword makers, Wilkinson Sword, if they would create for them a replica of how the original Excalibur may have appeared. They agreed and based on this original Roman design they forged the sword pictured here. When compared with the traditional Excalibur, it can be seen how strikingly different from the popular image the historical Arthur’s sword may have been.

The Wilkinson Sword replica of Excalibur was designed by Dan Shadrake of the Dark Age military recreation society Britannia. The overall design is based on archaeological finds from the period and the scrolling along the blade was a common decoration for armor and weaponry of Celtic Britain. The twin serpent motif on the hilt and cross-guard was based on the oldest surviving description of Excalibur in a medieval Welsh war-poem called The Dream of Rhonabwy which describes Arthur’s sword as having "two serpents upon its golden hilt". This particular double serpent motif was in fact an emblem of a Roman garrison which seems to have been adopted by a succession of important British chieftains. It is found in rare late-Roman military document called the Notitia Dignitatum dating from the fifth century AD.



Right: The hilt of the replica Excalibur with the intertwined golden serpents.



http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:f7_jXP8q9skJ:www.grahamphillips.net/Trail/7_Excalibur.htm+Excalibur+description+roman+spatha+Graham+Phillips&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785733531/qid=1111431859/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6510405-9251156?v=glance&s=books


*I also read that Excalibur was supposed to be the sword of Julius Caesar..wouldve made sense...least in essence.

PS

Interesting tidbit on the sword of Perseus, although his adamantine sword had no name(process of naming swords really didnt start until the middle ages, least gain in popularity), the name 'Pegasus', means--'Spring Forth' and the name of his brother, 'Chrysaor', means --'Golden blade'. Pegasus was a variant of a sea horse, he came from the sea, but had regular horse's legs. Now, both Pegasus and Chrysoar are the sons of Poseidon, the king and god of the Sea. *In the "Clash of the Titans" movie, his sword glows a fabulous golden yellow when he first see it by the statue.

The supposed name of Caesar sword was 'Crocea Mors' or "yellow-death" in Latin.

So perhaps the "Golden Sword springing forth from the sea" idea, can be traced back to there, along with the almighty unbreakable divine sword which slays monsters. The Atlanten King, with the Ocean Sea motif's can be considered symbolic of all of this too.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 20:40

The Mountain of Power can indeed be a ziggurat, as in the Tower of Babel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_babel

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15005b.htm
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