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 Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 13 Jan - 22:58

Well, maybe. The idea is a "Mountain" builded with the desire of "becoming a god". That is what essenstially Thulsa Doom appears to be looking for. Also, this sin has a punishment and these men get "confused" and go away, as "orphans". Like the "children of Doom" get confused and become "orphans" also, after Doom's death.





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By the way, I can't see the page where supposedly were the pics of the possible real Excalibur. Same, cuz I was really curious about it.

So, would it look like a roman gladius, or a spatha??

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Some armored horses images:


William Stout:




Frazetta:




Roman Horse Mask:




Newstead roman Horse Mask:




Sasanian Dinsaty -(Iran):




European, Middle Ages:






Germany:




Tower of london:

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 2:11



The Tower tarot is connected to the story of , The Tower of Babel. All comes together nicely for sure. But instead of the lightning from heaven, its Conan's torch along with a heavy touch of the divine (gasoline,lol) which brings down Doom's Tower/Mountain of Power.

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Here's the late Eastern Roman calvary :



I remember in one of the Zamorian cities, there's a heavily armored chainmail or scalemail knight riding into the gates in one of the montages.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 8:13

What about the symbol in the shields of these late roman soldiers?

I don't remember that armored knight, do you know more exactly when did it appear?
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 13:34

At around 2:37/40 you can see 1-2 of them here entering the gate carrying spears, but better of watching it on film, can see it a lil better. Can catch their armor reflecting in the sun for a brief moment.

The only thing that bothered me a little bit in the movie, was that much of the armor was too repetitive with the Turko-mongol like helmets with the fursr..seems everyone from Cimmeria to Vanheim to Zamora used them,lol. Same problem in CONAN THE DESTROYER, Taramis uses the same style helmet.. along with Bombaataa. Best helmets from the movie was Thulsa Doom's, Thorgrim's and Rexor's from the Cimmerian Raid sequence..and Conan's battle of the mounds one was pretty good too, though I liked Cobb's concept version more. Osric's guard armor werent too bad, they looked like a mix of Samurai and Saxon Sutton Hoo style.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o78CQvChsz4

*There's a very nice site on the Roman war dogs, "History and Tradition: from Roman Molosso to present days"

http://www.ilcontadodelmolise.com/english/storia_e_tradizione1.htm

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Also check out this pendant from the island of Aegina, the so-called "Master of the Animals", standing amongst the lotus plants.

____________________

Here's a nice one by Frank Frazetta:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 19:20

Check out Guilio Artistide Santorio's Dianna(Artemis) of Ephesus and the Slaves.. has a very Orgy Chamber quality to it I must say:



Mutliple breasted like that Setian Baal statue by Cobb:




She's a fertility goddess, associated with the moon. Thulsa Doom also uses the Sun and Moon.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 20:39

It's impossible for me to see the armored guy in the youtube vid. I'll try to see him in the dvd.



Founded this. I don't know what exactly represents, but I think it's some kind of theatral act. It's roman. Dunno who the woman with the two snakes is.






And also this picture of King Arthur:


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 21:05

Some very interesting images in that page about "warrior dogs", Cromulus.





Roman conquerors, in some celtic land (maybe Britain, Ireland or France, also could be Spain).




Dogs are on the left, eating corpses Confused :




Gladiator dogs:





In the Stout storyboard, the dogs don't have any kind of armor, not even collar:




In the comic by John Buscema, they do have spiked collars (see the dog below):




Armor in the movie:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 21:54

Yes, also in that wonderful site, they talk of Alexander's favorite war-dog which was killed in battle. Stone's draft featured Conan's father having the dog which gets killed by Hyperboreans/Janos trying to save his life. Stone being a huge Alexander fan probably carried it to CONAN. Even his awful shit movie "Alexander", he made King Philip rather like Conan's dad, as there's a kinda "Riddle of Steel" moment shared between Philip and the boy Alexander.

Roman Statue:


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Based on all that we know, its very appropriate that the name "Thulsa Doom" was retained as the main villain..as movie is faithful to the Pan-Mythology and occult found in the books as well as the real world.

One can use Lovecraft's version of Set, called Yig:

Quote :
Yig (the Father of Serpents) first appeared in the story The Curse of Yig which was created by Zealia Bishop and almost completely rewritten by H. P. Lovecraft. He is a deity that appears as a serpent man, serpent with bat like wings, or as a giant snake. Although Yig is easy to anger, he is easy to please as well. Yig often sends his serpent minions, the children of Yig, to destroy or transform his enemies.

To Native Americans, Yig is regarded as "bad medicine". He is also alluded to in western American folklore. He is identified with the Mesoamerican deity Quetzalcoatl, and may be a prototype for that god and other serpentine gods worldwide. Some authors identify him as the Stygian serpent god Set's father, and from Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, and also with the Great Serpent worshiped by the Serpent People of Valusia from Howard's Kull stories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Old_One_compendium#Yig

His proto-Thulsa Doom, the other Atlantean sorcerer L'mur-Kathulos is said to derive from Lemurian.
the Cthulhu Mythos of Lovecraft. Cthulhu came from Greek Chthonic- which pertains to, deities or spirits of the underworld, especially in relation to Greek religion...which Typhon/Python belong to.

Thulsa may also come from Tulsa, which is creek indian for "something old".

Quote :
The name " Tulsa" (originally spelled Tulsey or Tulsee) is a shortened pronunciation of Tallasi, which is almost certainly a contraction of Tullahassee or Tallahassee, meaning "Old Town"("Tulwa," meaning town, and "ahassee," meaning something old) in the Creek language. The name was apparently transferred from Alabama when the Creek Indians were forced to move here. Adolphus DeLorraine Orcutt (1846-1913), an early Territory rancher and cattleman, and member of Oklahoma's first legislature, evidently suggested the name be used.

http://www.tulsalibrary.org/tulsahistory/communities.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 14 Jan - 23:57

Knossos Serpent Goddess:


Angel and the Serpent(looks like Thulsa Doom's bow)

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 15 Jan - 0:33

Flaming Turd wrote:
Also I found another pic of "Excalibur" that fits pretty close with the Milius' movie:



I was just searching for on Arthur and this Lady and the Lake thing;

Quote :
The boy's and girl's name Vivian \v(i)-vian\ is pronounced VIV-ee-en. It is of Latin origin, and its meaning is "lively". An ancient personal name; a saint's name. The name has been common only since the 19th century. In Malory's "Morte d'Arthur", Vivien was the Lady of the Lake and also the enchantress of Merlin. Though not linguistically related, Vivian has been used as an English version of the Irish Gaelic name Bebhinn.

Also interesting:
Quote :
The character has some similarities to the sea nymph Thetis of Greek mythology. Like the Lady of the Lake, Thetis is an aquatic spirit who raises the greatest warrior of her time (in this case, her son Achilles). Thetis' husband is Peleus, while the Lady of the Lake takes the knight Pelleas as her lover in some versions. Thetis uses magic to make her son invulnerable to harm and later gives him a shield and armor forged by the god Hephaestus, while the Arthurian character gives Lancelot a ring that protects him from all magic and delivers Excalibur to King Arthur. The Greek theme may have influenced or originated the tradition; the epic poem Iliad which features Thetis was popular both with the Romans, who occupied and colonized Great Britain and Brittany, and with the medieval scholars who wrote down the celtic myths and oral traditions. The Lady of the Lake's guise as a water fay also makes her somewhat similar to Melusine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_lake

_______________________

The jews seemed to be influenced by the cult of Asclepius, whose very serpent staff is the sign of healing, the caduceus :

Quote :
On another occasion, because of their murmuring against God, the Israelites were punished by a plague of poisonous snakes which bit the people and caused many to die. The Israelites repented and asked Moses to intercede for them before God. The Lord commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent and to place it on a pole. Whoever had been bitten, and with faith looked on the bronze serpent, remained alive.

This bronze serpent served as a prefiguration of Christ the Saviour. Christ was crucified on the Cross for all our sins. Now we, looking upon Him with faith, are healed of our sins and saved from eternal death.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/LGOT/wandering.shtml

Doom's cult is also the false healing.. as he always seeks to insert his venomous corruption through false deeds, promises, drugs, hypnosis and even murders and then have them turn to him and his snake tower or mountain to be healed/cleansed.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 15 Jan - 20:09

Another connection I can find besides mysticism and alchemy, is the next obvious thing, astrology and that Thulsa Doom is a Scorpio. It has a rather duel nature.

The Scorpio is sexual, intense, saddistic, honest, powerful. Its immortal and the most powerful sign of the zodiac. Life, death and rebirth it rules over, as its number is 8, representing infinity, the serpent swallowing its own tail,(Oroboros). Like the phoenix, it rises from its own ashes. Its associated with Mars and Pluto, both war and death..the underworld. Its also associated with it is:

# Birthstone = Golden Topaz or Opal
# Colors = Black, Dark Red, Maroon
# Gemstone = Citrine, Opal, bright yellow Topaz and shining Diamonds
# Metal = Iron, Steel, Magnesium
# Animal = Eagle, Wolf, Scorpion, Phoenix, Tiger
# Flowers = Dark red flowers such as Geraniums/occasionally Roses
# Trees = Thorn-bearing varieties and types that are 'abundant in flowers'
# Foods = Anything with strong or sweet flavors

http://www.whereincity.com/astrology/scorpio.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(astrology)

http://www.chartplanet.com/html/Scorpio.html

The Serpent and the Scorpio seem always connected, even in Howard's world, the Great Serpent and Scorpion are the oldest of gods.

Thulsa Doom's allowing Conan to live, can be a sign of knowing that one day Conan would slay him and follow the cycle and eventually become him at the end. Same thing with Kurtz from "Apocalypse Now". Doom wanting his followers to cleanse themselves, but burning away their physical bodies with the candles at the end of the movie, to reach a spiritual paradise.

The Black Moon and Black Sun , and even the wolf witch's wolves see connected to it. Another interesting thing about the Witch, is her oracle ability and in the Stone script, she's more an agent of Set/Thulsa Doom. Even the Lotus being one of his attributes makes sense.

Doom in the script is described as, lean, darkly handsome-- whose striking presence is a powerful combination of sexuality and evil. He has dark fierce eyes, seductive and graceful movements, sensual and penetrating gaze which fill with fire. This sounds a lot like either Christopher Lee or Frank Langella's Dracula.

Conan's mother was also to have been turned on by his presence and gave into his will..not just lower her weapon. There was something else present..perhaps a maybe a special effect with his eyes too, I dont know.

Also within the lyrics, you can find the same Marian salute and search for Iron weapons to wage war and conquer:
http://galeon.hispavista.com/pole_web/txtbso/textlyrics.htm

______________


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 15 Jan - 21:12

The wiki also has this:

Quote :
Sol niger (black sun) is also the name of the result of the first stage of the Opus Magnum in alchemy, the blackening (nigredo). The complete Opus magnum (Great Work) ends with the production of gold. The Opus magnum can also be understood in a mystic way: see Alchemy - The Opus magnum

Contemporary usage of the term "Black Sun" can be found in the works of esoteric musicians like COIL and Boyd Rice and occult groups such as Black Sun Rising a Pylon of the Temple of Set

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28alchemy%29

The Black Sun also become a symbol used by the Nazi's:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsblacksun.htm



Conan's wheel necklace seems connected along with the Wheel of Pain.

This one looks like the Wheel of Pain:


Quote :
The Four of Wands

The Lord of Completion marks a point where a circle has been completed. It can apply to work projects, personal situations - even phases of life. In some respects it's like a lesser reflection of the Universe, the final Major Arcana card.

Another aspect of the 4 of Wands associate it with the Major Arcanum of Adjustment, or Justice. This is because this Wand indicates the manifestation of balanced forces, resulting in the fulfilment of earlier hopes, ideas and dreams. The balance aspect, combined with the overall morality of Wands, brings us to think about injustice being resolved, inequity acknowledged and set right.

This is a good card, promising not only the sense of natural satisfaction which arises when we follow our ideas through to their logical conclusion, but also the opportunity to start new things off.

If we stop when we have achieved a goal along the way, we begin to stagnate. We need to take the sense of contentment and channel it into the stage on our journey - that way we continually grow.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 16 Jan - 2:18

is it just my copy, or is that scene, with conan admiring the sword reccently taken from the atlantean king, not from the actual film? I have the colectors edition, and that particular camera angle and sword are NOT in this release. The only sword shown is the atlantean through out the crypt scene. maybe this was an off camera/on set still taken during a rehearsal of the shot prefilming? scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 16 Jan - 3:35

Yes, its not the same sword.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 17 Jan - 14:12

The Baphomet and the maiden, rather like Thulsa Doom and the Princess:



^Also again that Triangle.

______________

Nevsky again:



*The man in the bottom righthand corner, is using the same sword pose found on Greco-Roman statues and in CONAN.

1995's re-release poster:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 17 Jan - 20:50

Here's another good one, from Crete I think:





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 18 Jan - 19:29








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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 20 Jan - 6:51

I don't know if you posted this before.


Laocoon and his sons fighting against two sea serpents. ROME -(Between 160 BC and 20 BC)-








Could inspire this scene?






Or maybe "The Laocoon" could inspire these artworks by Frazetta?






Or maybe these art?










An Athlete Wrestling with a Python - 1877




Images of Hercules slaying the Hydra.
















Conan slaying the Holy Serpent of the Cult.

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 20 Jan - 14:18

Yea, I posted a few of them on some of the first pages..Frazetta was surely taken by Ancient and Renaissance era art.
___________________

Here's Zeus again:





________

These also have some Recovery and Battle of Mounds similarities as well.

Statue of MARS LUDOVISI, Rome




Fresco of Mars at Pompeii, Naples




Mars by Diego da Silva Velázquez
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 21 Jan - 23:36

Thracians. Look at the shield image -looks like a Thulsa Doom symbol.






Some more images of armored horses.


Persian.




Iberian from Spain.




Parthian.

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 22 Jan - 0:37

Some more Roman Calvary:











Gladiator plates:










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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 29 Jan - 20:37

Was just reading about Theseus , that his father King Aegueus of Athens left under a hollow rock a sword and a pair of sandals, to be claimed by his son when he was big enough to raise the rock.

According to the Troezenian legend his father was the god Poseidon, and having lifted the rock and obtained his sword, he went on a perilous land journey knowing it would be harsh and difficult. Whereby he slayed many murderous robbers and bandits, whom each had different ways of slaughtering hapless travelers. So he makes his way to King Aegeus, whom his witch wife Medea nearly deliberately poisons his drink, but the king warns him in time. So then King Aegeus tells Theseus of the affliction that Athens suffers from every year by the hands of Minos of Crete in vengeance for the killing of his son Androgeus in Attica. That every year youths and maidens are to be given as victims to the Minotaur.

Another interesting one, was when Alexander the Great, with his word trust, cut the "Gordian Knot", which a prophecy had years before proclaimed that whomever undoes the knot, will become conqueror and ruler of all Asia. I think Conan's slave chain can be seen as much the same, as Conan breaks his chain with the sword from under a rock, and fulfills a prochecy of becoming a great conqueror.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 29 Jan - 21:47

Also found some nice Babylonian steles:



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 29 Jan - 23:16



Here's another one I found in a book saying it was a "Celtic Demon", it looks around the middle ages, but I could be wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 31 Jan - 0:33

Was reading up of Flagellation. Its seen on CONAN with Doom's followers lashing themselves with whips and serpents being used as whips.

This process was long since seen as healthful and curative. Was used by everyone from ancient Greece to Victorian England to cure people for various ailments and even inconsistence in boys. Hopi Indians of Arizona also uses whips for much the same reasons.

Some Christian sects considered 1000 self-inflicted lashes the spiritual equivalent of ten penitential psalms. The Franciscans used the whip to repress any unchristian fleshly urges and sins.

It seems of course this went into sado-masochistic usage as well way before even De Sade came into existence .

A illustration of a Late Middle Ages procession of Flagellants traveling across Europe, beating each other and themselves in penance for their sins and those of society.
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