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 Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 4:48

About the Boorman's movie "Excalibur", it was actually being filmed before CTB started to. In fact Milius wanted to use "carmina burana" as the soundtrack for the battles, but he was told Boorman was already doing that.

What other similarities do you find in that movie, apart of that cool finding about Merlin's symbol?

The only thing I could find right now would be this:


















But I don't think it could be a direct relation with the "Excalibur" movie, but more a Milius' interpretation of the original myth. What do you think?
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 5:05

There's a part where Percival gets put on some kinda death tree. The scripts to CONAN were written in 1978-80 if not even earlier, so Boorman had plenty of time to familiarize himself with the material. There's also some elements still retained of "Lord of the Rings", which Boorman wanted to bring to the big screen, but he made "Excalibur" instead. Originally "Excalibur" was to be "Lord of the Rings", but he couldnt get the rights nor have the budget, so turned the trilogy into one movie by doing "Excalibur" instead.

In my review of Oliver Stone's CONAN script I make a mention of some similarities there too btw.

Regardling "Legend", I never liked it, I just liked the nubile young Mia Sara, as I had a crush on her back then.


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 5:14

The architecture of this interior of the "Tower of Set" (but VERY specially, the lamp with serpentine designs) looks to me like "art nouveau".





Art Nouveau was a movement from the first part of the 20th century. They used a lot of serpentine motifs in the desings, as well as sinuous lines and curves, imitating the organic designs of nature. They also tried to modernize ancient designs like egipcian.

Compare the lamp of the movie with these next pics and hopefuly you will see what I mean.






















The exterior itself, and every serpentine motif of the Set cult, could be also "art noveau":







Also, take a look at the curves and sinuousity of these drawings (by Alphonse Mucha). Reminds me a lot the style of the designs in Conan's lamp, (and by extention Cobb's style).







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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 5:18

Regarding the Aquilonian throne, its fairly standard Ancient designs

Egyptian & Roman thrones:



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 6:10

Here's some more images of Perseus slaying Medusa, this time from the Temple of Apollo in Sicily:




What the temple wouldve looked like in its heyday:


The symbol of Medusa actually is believed to repel other evil spirits and the Evil Eye too. It is interesting how Thulsa Doom's great evil in the movie, kept others from doing evil upon him, which also lead to his complete disbelief that he could be wounded and his temples defiled.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 7:59

I love Meso-American ancient cultures, so I made a search for some comparisons.


Sculpted skull motifs:





MILIUS' MOVIE:




Decapitation was a common practice in sacrifices. Heads and skulls were exhibed in the called "Tzompantli", as a gift to the gods -(and as a very practical way to show the strenght of the army of that city)-.



MILIUS' MOVIE:







Human sacrifices:



MILIUS' MOVIE:



This woman is thrown into a Cenote, a natural pool where she died as a gift to Chac (mayan) or Tlaloc (aztec, toltec) god of Rain, who supposedly lived underwater.







MILIUS' MOVIE:







Mictlantecutli, the god of the Underworld -(an undead skeleton)-:





MILIUS' MOVIE:







Zen posture:











MILIUS' MOVIE:






Zen posture, crossed arms:



MILIUS' MOVIE:





Thrones:

A throne without a back:



(This is a jaguar throne from "El Castillo", pyramid of the mayan city of Chichen Itza. Apart from being a feline motif throne -jaguars were a royal symbol for Kings, as lions for Conan - the important thing is that it has no back, same as Conan's royal chair).






MILIUS' MOVIE:



Also there's the hieratic posture as these amerindian kings where portrayed.





MILIUS' MOVIE:





Cannibalism:

(These drawings were made by the spanish conquerors, and some demonizing racism and even christian propaganda could have influence them. It is proven, cannibalism was practiced in Meso-America, but catholic priests in that time weren't exactly objetive in their description of amerindian rites).















MILIUS' MOVIE:





Pyramids:













MILIUS' MOVIE:






Ruler on the top of Pyramid, giving some speeches to the audience:






MILIUS' MOVIE:





Cult of the Snake:

Man being devoured by a snake. (Snake is a symbol of knowledge, so it's a man being devoured by knowledge. When he is in the belly of the snake, then it will be eaten by an eagle, and will be transformed into the "feathered snake", the complete ying-yang entity).





Some sculpted serpent figures:














MILIUS' MOVIE:






Serpent God (male):




The Moher Serpent (Ixchell -mayan-, Coatlicue -aztec-, Cihuacoatl -aztec).










Two snakes, confronting each other:










MILIUS' MOVIE:





Mayan hieroglyphs:











THE DESTROYER -(not the Milius' movie, but this catacombs where probably originally designed by William Stout, and then redesigned and builded as life-size set by Pier Luigi Basile, who worked as "Art Director" for Milius' CTB).







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Chrysagon
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 8:51

Flaming Turd wrote:

Chrysagon wrote:

Not exactly in fact. Mammals which have not grown up in the middle of their kind never adapt to savage life. So in fact you are not born wolf or whale, you become it. [/font][font=Verdana]It is a pretty new concept.

Mmm, that is interesting. Guess you are right, but I wonder how they "become" it. Are they "teached" by members of the pack? How?

The process is not clearly known for every species, but it seems it is mainly by imitation.
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 9:25

I rather liked Ignatius Donnelly's "Atlantis the Antediluvian World" book, was quite intriguing, even the CONAN movie very much reminded me of it. Its easy to assume both Stone and Millius share interests in this regard, though Milius often talked down about fiction in various which I find wholly silly coming from him, though its probably a front/hot air,lol.

The Sumerian Ziggurat's are also of great interest:



http://www.crystalinks.com/ziggurat.html

_____________

Canary Islands





Sicily





Sardinia







Greece:
Hellenikon Pyramid


Quote :
"It must be noted that, according to these results, the Hellenikon pyramid predates, by at least 100 years, the oldest Egyptian pyramid (Djoser - 2620 B.C.) and by 170 years the Great Pyramid of Cheops (Khufu - 2550 B.C.) "

Links on them Pyramids of the Mediterranean


http://www.abora2.com/english/triangle/triangle.htm

http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramids.html


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 9:49

The movie "Atlantis the Lost Continent" also shares some similarities with the CONAN movie which I had mentioned before too:




Oliver Stone perhaps was very much influenced by this movie, it even had many genetically engineered mutants.
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Protoplasme
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 10:48

Flaming Turd wrote:
The architecture of this interior of the "Tower of Set" (but VERY specially, the lamp with serpentine designs) looks to me like "art nouveau".





Yep, I have an explanation for that: William Stout is very influenced by the Art Nouveau (and by the art of the beginning of 19th century in general).
I had made a comparison a few years ago, with the comic/storyboard of Stout and some Mucha's paintings:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8578/mucha1fp4.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3503/mucha2wc8.jpg



EDIT :








etc...

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axerules
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 11:55

Sorry it took so long.
Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Howard himself played with Aryanism of course. As he was more a Celtist and not as blatant with his own brand of racism which seemed to be more loose, mental and culture based, while Lovecraft was totally infatuated with the physical "Nordic-Teutonic Aryan" types and more vocal(in his early years, later on his views changed somewhat).
And REH wanted to portray a Celtic übermensch more than a Nordic/Germanic one like J. Milius. Conan is Howard's fancied archetype of the "Black Irish", people of Irish descent were too subject of racism in the USA during his lifetime.


Quote :
Howard also loved mixing up bits of pieces of various cultures, peoples and nations(Past or modern). He had the Middle Ages with Classical and Pre-Classical ancient Europe and Asia. He has Pointain(Pointiers, France) placed in a semi- Middle Ages France which he dubs, "Aquilonia", which is like a mix of the Kingdom of Aquintania and the Roman Italy/ Empire.
Poitain in REH's texts, the French town of Poitiers (the place where my mother lives), in the region of Poitou. What is the kingdom of "Aquintana" ?
REH’s Aquilonia is derived IMO from medieval AQUITAINE.
Doyle’s (yes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) White Company and H. Lamb’s Crusade book (with the heart of the kingdom of France being Aquitaine) where certainly his main influences on this.
Quote :
The dark Vanir warriors also serve as some kinda quasi reference to Romanized barbarians, with their use of the Rottweiler dogs(whom where bred by the Romans) and Gladiatorial Arenas, with the Thulsa Doom character being the Roman warlord..though his Teutonic Christian knight references to "Alexander Nevsky is still present, with Conan being the Tartar-Russian rather than German-Teuton.
Alexander Nevsky, yes. I do agree with that.

I really don't see REH's Conan as a "romanized" king. REH utterly HATED Romans. Read any Bran Mak Morn tale if you have any doubt. I don't say he didn't borrowed a lot of names our had a several cultural influences including Latin ones, it was paradoxal but "full of shit" ? Was Milius, when he gave zen-like qualities to Nordic berserkers, consistent ? I like the way some artists are able to conciliate several different influences.

Flaming Turd wrote:
The concept of the "Noble savage" was also used by Jack London, who REH admired so much (and in my humble opinion, a much better and mature writter than Howard). One of his books was an all time favourite of mine: "The call of the wild" wrotte by 1930. I also love "White fang" but the first one worked even better for me. It's the tale of Buck, a great family dog that is kidnapped and forced to fight as a "gladiator" . He scapes and soon he becomes the ruler of a dog sled, to finally join a wild wolfs pack. It's a very simple tale about survival, without complicated and too abstract words. But its simplicity is so powerful and full of poetry that I don't get tired of read it from time to time. (There was a nice movie with Rutger Hauer as the master of Buck).
REH said about Jack London that he was one of his favorite writers.

JL's Star-Rover (one of the books REH had read again and again, he said it in his letters) is the main influence on all REH's reincarnation texts. He borrowed his "racial ingrained memories" in this book and some of London's "aryanisms". The "J. Allison" yarns are packed with this kind of stuff.

My opinion is that REH heard also about Mitra through this book and not because of the historical "Mithra". In chapter XXI, London wrote: "Mitra, likewise, was a good old Aryan god..." Note the spelling: no "H".





Flaming Turd wrote:
But I think that, as you said, this is somehow a too depressive and misanthropic description of the "natural state" of man. I don't believe that WAR was so present in the head of every primitive man. Not more present than the importance of making a good wine or finding the better way to cure some illness. REH characters look like they only think about war, like an obssession.
Hey FT, I don't believe REH was totally right about that, even if I'm a slightly pessimistisc guy and perhaps a (litlle) bit misanthrope too, I do not share all his beliefs ! For me, war makes good fictionnal stories and IRL is not fun at all !

Quote :
I think the secret of this strengh lies in the connection of REH with his image of the "Primitive Man" as it was described in the text of him. But I think he didn't developed the idea as I said, he only wrotte about war conflicts, not about the real life of primitive people.
Exactly. He wrote action-packed short stories for pulps ! Nothing like academic history, his historical fiction texts too were violently-oriented.
He also said in a letter that he searched through history to find barbarians, his interest in a former barbarian people faded as soon as it's members started to setlle.


Quote :
Wink Noone is innocent. We agree there very much, friend.
Cool

Quote :
Happy new year motherfuckers. rabbit
Happy new year !


BTW, this is a wonderful topic IMO, with very interesting discussions and pictures. To learn and talk about philosophy, art, history in a Conan forum is great. Thanks everyone ! mongol


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Chrysagon
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 15:54

Aquilonia doesn't comes from Aquitaine, but from the old name of the french city of Quimper (Civitas Aquilonia) founded by romans in the first century BC.
In some legends one warrior, named Conan Meriadec, came from Britain Island during IVth century to create his own kingdom, with Aquilonia as a capital city. In other versions he was based in Nantes (where I live).
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 16:59

Chrys, I have always assumed REH took some ideas from H. Lamb's (one of his fave' writers) Crusades book, Iron Men and Saints. It says this in chapter 4: "The heart of France rested in the hand of the Duke of Aquitaine..." I know it's tenuous, but at least it's in REH's bookshelf.

Through which book do you think REH had knowledge of "Civitas" ? Source ? Was "Civitas" in T. Bulfinch's works about mythology (I haven't read something from him yet) ?
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Chrysagon
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 17:26

In fact we know what books REH had on his bookshelves, but we must not forget that he accessed much more in librairies he visited in Brownwood and others towns.
The fact that Aquilonia was ruled by a king named Conan, doesn't automatically implies that a book said that in his private collection. And it can't be a coincidence. "Civitas" was the word for "city" and the knowledge of Civitas Aquilonia must have been available in any serious History book REH could have open in a good library. It wouldn't pay hommage to him to think he only had read the books he owned.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 21:00

Yeah my fault, I used the Latin name instead of the Romance form, for the Middle Ages Aquitaine kingdom , which was the Roman province of Gallia Aquitania.

Howard melded the Classical periods with the late Middle Ages, to mediocre effect while combining various other author's works, whether by direct imitation or inspiration. By authors I also mean ancient writers too not just contemporary. His world is mix of established Mythology and history, with some of his own touches here and there.


Yes, the Iranian god Mitra and its variations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra

_____________________

Axe, Howard had mixed feelings over the Vikings just as he did the Picts. One of his first stories was an imitation of "Beowulf" in fact. In some stories he's positive about Vikings, others he's having his Irish Gael hero fighting them to the death.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 2 Jan - 23:14

Chrysagon wrote:
Aquilonia doesn't comes from Aquitaine, but from the old name of the french city of Quimper (Civitas Aquilonia) founded by romans in the first century BC.
In some legends one warrior, named Conan Meriadec, came from Britain Island during IVth century to create his own kingdom, with Aquilonia as a capital city. In other versions he was based in Nantes (where I live).

Yes, Howard liked playing with names and melding things, this is fairly well known.

There is a real Historical Aquilonia, its located in Naples, Italy. It was popular for Roman Soldiers to name things after the Imperial Eagle as Aquila means eagle in Latin.I think Aquilonia loosely translates to "Land of the Eagle" or "Eagle-Land".

Like I was saying before, its a mix of the Roman Kingdom and Imperial Italy, with bits from medieval Aquintaine and Brittany thrown in the mix.

I can cull through place names off hand, and know that much of it is just play on words or re-imagined established mythology and history.


Few examples:

Fort Tuscelan - Ancient Italian city of Tusculem.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9073897/Tusculum

Tybor River- the Tiber River in Italy

Elymia-Historical Elymia or Erice(Segesta). Elymians are from Eastern Sicily.

Tarantia- Taranto(Tarentum in Latin) is and important city in ancient and modern Southern Italy.It was connected to the Appian Way, and Pontine Marshes.

Saxula Pass: From Latin saxetum -i n. [a rocky place].

saxeus -a -um [of rock , stony].

saxosus -a -um [full of rocks , rocky].

saxulum -i n. [a little rock].

saxum -i n. [a rock , stone]; esp. [the Tarpeian rock].

The Road of Kings- The Appian Way, was also dubbed the "Queen of the long Roads".

Valeria(she was Aquilonian)-Popular Latin female name

I can say that there's a real Zamora, its located in Spain and Zingaro in Italian means, Gypsy.

Valusia(precursor to Aquilonia)-comes from no doubt the Latin word "Valere", which means "to be strong". Its one of the oldest and important of the Roman family nomens(Valerius), goes back over 2 thousand years. The name "Valerius/Valeria" comes from it, as does "Volusus".


Styx, Stygia and Acheron-, are Greek names for places in the Underworld.

Queen Akivasha- is a play on one of the Sea People tribes called in Egyptian Elwesh or Akkaiwasha. There believed to be name for the Achaeans.

Alimane River- Alemanni a Latin name for a Germanic tribe near the Rhine River.

khorotas River: probably comes from Greek word Korythos(helmet)- he was the son Zeus and Electra the Atlantid and father of Dardanos. Also Homer's description of Hector, "Korythaiolos Hector(Shining-Helmet)". Was also a "race" of warrior that went by that name. or perhaps "Kratos", which means "Strenght" in Greek. Kratos was a son of Zeus and a mortal man, he was the personification of strength and power.

Messantia- no doubt one of the real Messana's/ Messina's, one located on Sicily or the one in Southern Greece(Messene).

Most of Howards Aquilonian names were Italic, Greek and some Etruscan thrown in. Howard even used Shakespearean names, like Prospero from out've "The Tempest"(he was the Wizard from Milan).

Hyperboreans were a popular subject material in those days by Esoteric Mystics and Racial thinkers, Lovecraft, Anston-Smith and Howard also used them to much degree. Howard names his fictional world after them, "Hyboria"..with Hyperboreans being basically the progenitor White Race..instead of Civilization originating and spreading from South to North(as in real world), in Howard's world it goes from North to South. Pretty much standard Nordicism of the early 20th century, along with Maddame Blavatsky's Atlanteans, and Hyperboreans. Really nothing original from Howard, he's just rehashing available popular thoughts.



Of course real Mythological Hyperboreans are completely different, nothing to do with Scandinavia or Norse( something the Nazi's believed):

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Hyperboreans

Wouldnt be the first time, a modern fantasy writer used a place name from Italy. Lewis's Narnia(Chronicles of Narnia fame) named it after the Italian city of Narni(Narnia in Latin). He also mixed Greco-Roman Mythology with Britonic and Norse.

______________________________

"Appian Way" as it appeared in Piranesi's imagination (1756).


__________________________

Ophir- a place of great wealth in the Hebrew Bible. Was also used by Burroughs in his "Tarzan" works, and Haggard also used it for his "King Soloman's Mines" stories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophir


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 3 Jan - 6:35

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
I can say that there's a real Zamora, its located in Spain and Zingaro in Italian means, Gypsy.

Yes.

Ok, first It's VERY silly when Howard related a pre-historic Spain with gypsys. If he would have said Zingarians eated Taco Bel and Burritos, it would have not been more idiot than that. scratch I wonder why he was so in love with european celts and ignored the fact that celtics also habited Spain, and mixed with some other indigenous tribes called the Iberos, creating the Celtiberian culture.














Priestess:





Some Celtiberian weapons -made of Iron- :










"Falcata", typical Celtiberian blade:




















That was a Celtiberian city called Numancia, that was conquered after a long battle by the Romans.








As you can see, these Celtiberians also used the "Palisade" defense.









Some other celtic tribes habited the north of the country, being related with the celts from Britain and sharing similarities in art and languaje. The Brigantes who habited the northwest of Spain (Galicia), but also lived in the largest section of northern England. Today this part of Spain is very proud of his celtic past. Other celtic tribes from the North were the Cantabros and Astures.

A "Torque" from Galicia, typical collar for males -(which, as I exposed in some earlier post, is a stylized figure of a snake with two heads, confronting each other).














The warriors rode horses -(as apparently the cimmerians actually did)-.











These north celtic of Spain tribes lived in Castros -(a word derived from "Castillo", castle). The villages where builded in the top oh a hill, and the typical round houses -(called "Pallozas")- were all surrounded by a defensive wall.

This is the castro of "Santa Tecla" (Galicia).




















[/url]


We can see the Pallozas (round houses) in the cimmerian village, and even a defensive wall. This design gets the cimmerians closer to the celts than to vikings, who didn't had these round houses.














Another oval (and bigger) Palloza from Asturias.





Also, as read in the map of the Cimmerian village, they put a Menhir at the entrance, with the symbol of Crom.





This menhir was very near of the hill of "Santa Tecla" -(Pontevedra, Galicia). The pictures of the castro, above, are from there.





The celts, as they arrived to the west of Europe, mixed themselves with the Megalithic cultures they founded living there. That way they got a spiritual religion very different from the nordic people.

Now this is the menhir, as it appears in the movie.





The tri-spirals is often referred to as a Celtic design, however it was carved about 2500 years before the Celts arrived. The triple spiral or "Triskele" is a symbol found on a number of Megalithic and Neolithic sites. The earliest examples having been carved on pre-Celtic stone monuments, and later examples found in the Celtic Christian "Illuminated manuscripts".





What the symbol meant to the pagans is unknown. In more recent history, Celtic Christians have sometimes used it to represent the Christian Trinity. It may also represent the concept of the celtic "Triple Goddess".

According Knight and Lomas, the triple spiral may represent the nine month period of human pregnancy, since the sun takes a fourth of a year to go from the celestial equator (an equinox) to extreme north or south declination (a solstice), and vice versa. During each three-month period, the sun's path across the sky appears to form a closely-wound quasi-helical shape, which can be likened to a spiral, so that three spirals could represent nine months, providing an explanation for a link between fertility and the triple-spiral symbol.

The menhir that is more similar to the one from the Cimmerian's is in Ireland, in the Celtic tomb called "New Grange".




















But let's go back to Spain, and to Galicia, Cantabria and Asturias. Giant stone steles were sculpted -(apparently as a Sun/Moon cult symbol)-, and in them it's not hard to find these versions of "Svastikas".




Which are mostly a stylized version of the original "triple spiral".







Two more steles from Cantabria.






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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 3 Jan - 8:13

Also, in Spain there was some other (even older) non-celtic cultures that were not conquered by the Romans like the "Vascones" or "Bascunes" -(from Pais Vasco). Their languaje still exists today, and it's one of the oldest in the world.








These are the vasque "Pirineos", a large series of mountains where the Vascones lived. The important thing is that some of the cimmerian mountains footage for the Milius' movie was filmed there.







So, there you have it. Ladies and gentlemen... Cimmeria.


























A cromlech.







Some other indigenous prehistoric tribe of Spain were the "Honderos", from the Baleares islands. (The honda is the weapon they use to throw stones).

















An oureboros related to the "Honderos" culture. As we all know, a Set Cult symbol.






Now we go to the south of Spain, to Almeria. Back in time to the Neolithic before the Metal-Age, there was the "Indalo" people. This early indigenous still lived in caves, and still had a hunters-recolectos life, mixed with the new agriculture. Soon they left the cavers and started to build huts in the outside.




















Idol.





"Cueva de los Letreros" -(Cave of the Signboards), in Sierra de Maria, Vélez Blanco, Almeria. There was found the painting of the "Indalo", among some other hieratic symbols.








The Indalo is a magical symbol. It has been customary to paint the symbol on the front of houses and businesses to protect them from evil and is considered to be a god totem. It put "bad spirits" away and is also a protection for storms.





Legend has it that the Indalo was a ghost that could hold and carry a rainbow in his hands (thus the arch over the head of the man). The Indalo has been adopted as the official symbol in the province of Almeria.





The indalos are in red.




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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 3 Jan - 8:29

Flaming Turd wrote:
Yes.

Ok, first It's VERY silly when Howard related a pre-historic Spain with gypsys. If he would have said Zingarians eated Taco Bel and Burritos, it would have not been more idiot than that. scratch I wonder why he was so in love with european celts and ignored the fact that celtics also habited Spain, and mixed with some other indigenous tribes called the Iberos, creating the Celtiberian culture.

HAHA!

Sadly, Howard didnt like "darker", Southern, or Latin peoples much, though used all he could from them. It is interesting how Conan and his Cimmerians were Dark, maybe he somehow exempted them because they were Irishmen in his mind, I dont know. Even his thoughts are the Picts is mysterious and contradictory, as sometimes he wrote kindly of them, like they were his kin, other times they became American Indians and sworn enemies. Maybe Howard had some Amerindian ancestry and was having inner conflict, who knows?! Hyborian era Pictland can easily be part of North America(liek Canada or something), and he even had Olmecs, Toltecs and Aztecs in his world,lol.

I think also if you take those silly "Hyborian Age" superimposed maps to seriously, Italy becomes like Koth or something, so ancient Italy was like the Saharan Desert over in Africa, and must of been populated by Yemenites cause. His descriptions of Aquilonians is on the norm, tall and fair skinned and haired, not too surprising. Laughing

http://hyboria.xoth.net/races/human_races.htm

Really politics and racism man. The whole equation with "Celts" and Britain was political to forge a national Identity in the UK during the 18th century.

Howard was one of them Celtic type of racial ethno-Nationalists and Northern Supremacists, they didnt always get along with the Anglo-Teutonic ones, as Germans and British, and English and Scottish/Irish don't always get along. It also comes down to if you fancy Blond men or Brunette men. Howard certainly didnt look like one of Himmler's poster boys.Wink

Also like Axerules was saying before, that whole "Black Irish" thing was big in those days. Just look at John Beddoe who was a big time leading English Anthropologist in those days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Beddoe

*Probably why Lovecraft didnt like knowing he may of had "Celtic" ancestry and Howard , was well, Howard. It wouldnt surprise me if Howard saw Conan the Cimmerian as Jack Dempsey in a loincloth either, if you know what I mean,lol.

I dont want to get to bogged down in this anymore really, but well what it boils down to is Anthropology because Howard was involving this no matter how quasi it may be. As in those days, which was often combined with fanciful Racist Academia/Agendas(not at all unlike today in some regards and various degrees, with things like Politically Correct racism and such. Like what if the Romans looked like Celts who looked like Saxons(ie English). Fairly simple formula.


__________________________________

Interestingly, the name Triskelion(from Geek meaning "Three Legged") was one of the original names for Sicily(as mentioned by Homer in the Iliad) since antiquity, called Trinacria, cause of its triangular shape. It was also dubbed the "Isle of the Sun" as the triangle is a symbol for the sun.

I think the earliest representations of was found in prehistoric rock carvings in northern Italy.

Our Sicilian trikelion normally combines Medusa:






________________


Here is some from:

Sicily











Malta




Greece









I could be doing this all day posting on the Paleo-Bronze age period, but the reality is that this culture was spread all over Coastal Europe, North Africa and the Near East and we should all be proud of our ancestors..who mustve broken their backs and gotten hernias to say the least.

Milius shouldve taken advantage of more locations, like Malta wouldve been nice for the lost city at the Battle of the Mounds.

*I think you'll like this site, Turd:

http://www.stonepages.com/
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 3 Jan - 23:04

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

*I think you'll like this site, Turd:

I do. Wink


Found this -





Mapuche legend (indigenous inhabitants of Central and Southern Chile and Southern Argentina).

Thousand and thousand of years ago, the sons of the most powerful (Peripillan and Antu) were transformed into snakes as a punishement. So, Caicai (son of Peripillan) turned into a Sea Serpent, meanwhile Trenten (son of Antu) became a Land Serpent.

The Sea Serpent wanted to sink the whole planet so the sea covered the lands. But the Land Serpent created high mountains, and the two snakes climbed there to fight against each other.

Finally, the Land Serpent won, and the planet was not completely covered by the sea. This way the geography of Chile was created.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 4 Jan - 0:47

Norsemen/Vikings never wore horned helmets into battle, they were however worn by Central and Eastern Mediterranean(Sea People)peoples and the Archean/ Mycenaean's some 3-5,000 years ago.





















Mycenae(or Troy?)



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 5 Jan - 23:36

THulsa Doom also has some Hindu inspirations too:





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 7 Jan - 20:57

Quote :
Dogs have been used in war for a very long time. Some ancient civilizations that used war dogs included the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Ancient Britons and the Romans. The Molossian 'Canis Molossus' dog of Epirus was the strongest known to the Romans, which were specifically trained for battle by the military. However, when fought against the broad-mouthed, powerful Mastiff called Pugnaces Britanniae found in Britannia, they were out matched.

The Romans exported many of this breed of Mastiff to Rome and then disseminated them over the known world. Often war dogs would be sent into battle with large protective metal collars from which spikes and curved knives protruded at all angles and wearing coats of chain mail.

Romans had attack formations made entirely of dogs. These proved to be effective machines of war at the time.


Dogs were also used for military purpose during the Middle Ages. Atilla the Hun used giant Molossian dogs in his campaigns. Other civilizations used armored dogs to defend caravans or attack enemies. Spaniards used dogs when they invaded the land controlled by South American natives. The British used dogs when they attacked the Irish. War dog breeding was highly valued.





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 7 Jan - 21:32

"Claws - fangs - bones necklaces" are very typical as prehistoric jewelry in the Milius' movie fashions.


Widely used by the Iron Age tribe known as Cimmerians:




Frazetta, artist who used this kind of necklaces for his warriors:




But actually the character of Conan wears these necklaces ONLY in the artworks, never in the real movie:





Well, I lied, he has one as a King:




The paleolithic Witch-Wolf also loves them:





Mongolian shamans:



And beauty walkirie warriors:




Now as a connection, in "The Destroyer" we can see another of these prehistoric necklaces in this artwork by Casaro.




Where do these cool jewelry come from? study


Apparently, the Neanderthals made pendants out of animal teeth by punching a hoke or etching a groove in the root.




These neanderthal culture of teeth-pendants is known as "the Chatelperronian". As the pendants were made by the very late Neanderthals and they may have just been imitating modern humans who had entered Europe by then. Some people believe that these things were evidence of Neanderthal/Modern interaction.



The Chatelperronians from Arcy made necklaces of bear incisors and wolf
canines, while the Belgian Aurignacians preferred bear canines and
wolf incisors. The next pic teeth are from a large feline.





Cro-Magnons with their superior technology achieved much
greater ornamental sophistication, which played a central role in
their social and ritual life.

And this is a Cromagnon (homo-sapiens) bones necklace from Cantabria, north of Spain.








Indigenous people from New Guinea:







Indigenous from the Marquesas Islands:





Aboriginal Australian warrior, and necklace made with Whale's teeth, from Tasmania.





LEFT: Tibetan warrior - RIGHT: Tibetan necklance made with Wolf's Teeth.





That is from Central America, from the Mayan culture. It was made with Jaguar FANGS.

The Jaguar was the main symbol of warriors -besides the eagle-.



Now this is the "Jaguar God" of Frazetta. -(A very stupid concept, I must say, as he is allways depicted using viking axes, iron knifes, and metallic belts. Well, in Meso America actually they bult tools with STONES, no metal was used, but gold in some jewelry. I guess the weapons of that Frazetta character could belong to some old viking who landed in Amwrica in ancient times... Or it's just a simple incoherence that nobody cares about)-.





North American indian tribes made pendants with fangs and claws.

"To wear a bear claw necklace wass a mark of distinction for a warrior or a chief, and the right to wear it had to be earned. These powerful symbols were a part of the culture of the Great Lakes, Plains, and Plateau tribes. On August 21, 1805, Lewis wrote in this journal that Shoshone "warriors or such as esteem themselves brave men wear collars made of the claws of the brown bear. . . . These claws are ornamented with beads about the thick end near which they are pierced through their sides and strung on a throng of dressed leather and tyed about the neck . . . . It is esteemed by them an act of equal celebrity the killing one of these bear or an enemy."

Sioux bear claws pendants.



Bear claw necklace (Canadian tribe)



Another bear claws necklace (Alaska).



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 8 Jan - 0:06

Also check out Victoria Vetri from "When Dinosaur's Ruled the Earth"






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