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 Conan and the Princess incomplete scene

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Sun 23 Sep - 8:30

I sometimes wonder if this scene shouldve been used at all, and that if the American version may of been better in the long run. One has to suspect Conan picked her up and carried her the rest of the way, which actually makes the scene far too intimate & nearly corny..I mean does he carry her all the way back to the Mounds?lol

A major thing that bothers me in this scene is, Subotai's odd absence. He shouldve been waiting there with the horses or as back-up for Conan. The American release just had Conan go back to the Mountain of Power to finish of Doom personally, which in many ways makes more sense for Milius' final "vision". Because he deleted the Shadizar ending and most Yasmina's character development anyway, and on both finished prints(American and Euro) King Osric lives and Conan returns her to him like he doenst give a shit, and maybe cause Subotai is watching over the Princess as he was also wounded back at the Mounds. The American release also makes Conan appear more stronger and the brooding loner.

Personally I think without the complete scripted ending, this scene with the Princess comes off rather dull and flat like it doesnt belong. I also dont like how it takes the focus off of Conan and places to much emphasis on the hippy Princess and her 'awakening'. We also miss out on an inconic scene of Conan slitting a guards throat close-up shot, on the CE DVD its Conan in the background and close-up/focus on the Princess. Only redeeming factors of the "added scene" is the 2nd guard about to get killed by Conan and the added(missing) Thulsa Doom line, "You my chrildren are the water" or whatever it was.

*Well even on the DVD we are still missing the complete scene in motion.







**Another inconsistency which bugs me, is how and why Akiro/Mound Wizard ever ended up as narrator/as the Chronicler of Conan's adventures, as his character disappears off the face of the earth after the mounds, and really worthless in the Script(s) he's basically threatened to return Conan to back life and more comic relief and disposable. CONAN/Arnold was supposed to narrate, which I think also makes and explains things a lot better. The CE DVD line doesn't make much sense either, for him to be speaking like this, "he and his companions sort adventure in the West". It should also be remembered that the original epilogue had no vocal narration by Akiro(the added voice version for the CE DVD though matches CONAN THE DESTROYER and 3rd abortive movie and helps a lot make things fit a bit more cmplete), and Mako's narrations is far to short, its suspiciously absent, throughtout the duration of the fim, it ends at the "Chrildren of Doom" line..so not a very good chronicler he is.
Rexor

The Voice Over/Narration was clearly fucked up back when they released the movie. The use of the word 'Companions' is interesting to, cause it doesnt fit the script of just Conan and Subotai leaving, and they theres no mention of the Wizard of Mounds being partve the duo at the end scene, again, the Wizard isnt important character, we have to assume, they left him at his hut and that was it. I think the decision to have Mako's character do the narration was a last minute and hastily contrived by the studio or whatever. Just to much significance is place on this minor character, than the script even movie dictates he deserves.

Having said that I enjoyed Mako's narrations, but even on the DVD Milius oddly hinted at redoing the narration at some point in the future(DVD?), cause he felt it shouldve been more correct and appropriate still to have Conan/Arnold do it.
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Einar
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Sun 23 Sep - 12:30

For all we know, maybe Milius shot an alternate / extended ending with the Princess back at Shadizar? I've read your comment about that much intriguing photo:

http://www.conancompletist.com/FR/anx/epilogue_anx/epilogue_annexes_com.html

but wasn't the King's Main Hall scene w/ Max Von Sydow shot indoors in Spain? Milius said he wanted to shoot pick up scenes in the States, but maybe he was only thinking about exteriors scenes ? (like shooting the parting of Conan and Subotai on horses in Zuma Beach or wherever else) And maybe he had already shot interior scenes with the Princess now Queen (with the crown) when still in Spain?

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Sun 23 Sep - 18:32

Yes, that is a strong theory of mine, based more on the novelization than the scripts, also if they had used the older bearded Conan at the opening and the beardless one at the end with the Arnold narration, which I am sure he recorded.

Moreover I forgot to mention before, like I was telling MightymcT once, the 2nd Draft ending is actually the American release cut, cause the princess was not there at the end at the Mountain of Power, only Conan. In the 3rd Draft, its like the CE DVD/or European release, with both the Princess and Conan and her scene and him walking a way with her. So thats very interesting too, however the Conan and Subotai meeting on horseback ending is present in both drafts.

In reality, it doesn't make sense to go to the USA and film that scene, unless like you are saying, its just exterior shots, like scenic. Granted in the scripts its mainly landscape and Conan and Subotai talking out in some field or dirt road or whatever. But I think the novel comes more into play at this point. Why though that real ending is missing is indeed a mystery, so why did they eventually delay it and then omitted it for is fucked up. They had stages built in Britain as well even. Maybe Milius' relatively inexperience as Director and his fickle and sluggish style cost the scene to be axed for the simple reason because "he never got around to it"? I dont know...he seemed to have plenty of time making at least 3 versions of the movie with the numerous alternate takes, and I never read anything about the movie going over budget, so I dont think money and time was a factor despite some known set-backs and delays, the real delays and cuts came with post-productions and release dates back in Hollywood.

Yet we are haunted with Milius' DVD comment that he "didnt have to cut too much out",lol. He made it seem that this final version was the version he always
intended and then made a line about not having to much violence making a better picture, and compared it to a Greek play. Well thats patenly false.



Thats also the problem with the 2nd and 3rd Drafts, Yaro isnt mentioned and never killed off at the end. In the novel it makes clear that Conan would finish off both Yaro and the Snake Cult in Shadizar when he returns the Princess safely to her people and throne. The Princess also has dialogue which is a plus.
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 9:50

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
A major thing that bothers me in this scene is, Subotai's odd absence. He shouldve been waiting there with the horses or as back-up for Conan

HE should have been in the sequel too, instead of fucking worthless shitty Malak !!! What a major loss ! I always thought Malak was a dumbed-down version of Subotaï... Same Conan's side-kick thief character, if you think about it... Only dumbed-down. If you ask me, I'd trade the Wizard for Subota in the sequel any time !

Wasn't that planned at some point, Subotaï being in Conan 2, I think I've read that somewhere or... scratch




EDIT: Man, the Subotaï gallery on the site is in serious need of more pictures !!! Only 3 photos ??? What the fuck ?!! bounce

http://www.conancompletist.com/FR/subo.htm
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Einar
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 9:58

Hah, that is where I read it : Laughing Razz

http://www.conancompletist.com/EN/epilogue01.htm

Quote :
At one point, Subotai was supposed to reappear in the sequel, and to meet his death midway through the movie! But finally, as everyone knows it, his character was replaced by the unbearable Malak one (who, himself, unfortunately, does not perish in CONAN, THE DESTROYER). Poor Subotai, even forgotten in the script of the very much awaited KING CONAN: CROWN OF IRON.

MightyMcT, where did you find that piece of info, do you remember?
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 12:42

Starlog #84 (July 1984), p.51:

Quote :
In total, they [= Roy Thomas & Gerry Conway] did five complete script drafts for De Laurentiis. (...) In the first draft, the writers even brought back the first film's Subotai the Mongol (Gerry Lopez), killing him off during the tale. However, De Laurentiis ordered that only the character of Conan be retained from the original feature, forcing Thomas and Conway to rewrite Subotai as Malak the Quick, at one point to be portrayed by Danny (Taxi) De Vito but now played by Tracey Walter of Best of the West.

Now, you know who is to blame for Subotai not returning in the sequel! Razz

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axerules
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 12:47

You're totally right, guys.


With Subotai instead of Malak, CtD would be a less lame movie...


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Einar
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 12:59

There's no question about it, axerules. But now we're left wondering how and when Subotai was killed in the first draft of Conan 2... I just hope they wrote a real great death scene for him ! viking
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 13:02

Quote :
With Subotai instead of Malak CtD would be a less lame movie

You think so, but for me Gerry can hardly play his role in Conan the Barbarian. I like the character very much, but he's honestly not a good actor. Malak is just too "childish" for me, but I think he plays well his part. I'm divided on that point...


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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 13:24

Einar wrote:
I just hope they wrote a real great death scene for him ! viking

Eaten by a dozen wolves !

It was his fate.... Mr. Green

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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 14:06

Based on the graphic novel "The Horn of Azoth", which is a comic book adaptation of the original first draft of Conan II (aka Conan, King of Thieves), Subotai was hanged for thievery in Shadizar (and this happens within the first 5 pages!). :? Shit Thumb down

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 18:39

Subotai was alright, his dubbed voice was a over the top and possibly the most memorable part of the character. But he's surely greater than Malak. I dont know why they never got a real japanese actor like Sonny Chiba or someone, perhaps Mako himself. *I haven't read the "King Conan" script, but did Milius hint on an interview or in the script that Subotai had a cameo? Wonder how serious he was with that?!

The major thing that bothered me about CONAN THE DESTROYER that it was a loose remake of CONAN THE BARBARIAN and there's no consistency aside for Valeria, which I am glad they mention her by name,lol. Best scenes in the movie is that Valeria pyre alter scene, Conan vs elite Guard, and the Dagoth battle, with the shot you see Conan standing triumphant. I think the story arc's were re-used by Milius' for his 3rd movie, Valeria being resurrected and Kon also fights a Horned Worm beast.

Wilt Chamberlain's Bombatta is really Yaro from CONAN THE BARBARIAN, if they wouldve casted him in CTB, you couldve had the character.

I also dont like that in part 2, Conan is stuck in Shadizar, like he's in the twighlight zone. Maybe they didnt know that Shadizar was a city, and not a nation. I never read the Thomas CONAN 1 script, which was written before Stones, but they both use Taramis the same way as done on CTD and recycle a "A Witch Shall Be Born" short story.

*I have to admit that(aside from Sam Jones) "Flash Gordon" had superior casting than CONAN, Brian Blessed and Timothy Dalton couldve been great addition for CONAN THE BARBARIAN.

CONAN lost most of its bigger names, like Ferrigno, Welch, Khambatta, Lee, Huston and Connery, possibly even Toshiro Mifune or Jackie Chan(whom the latter I dont care much for).

Milius is funny though, on the DVD, he claims Valérie Quennessen read really well as the Princess, meanwhile she had no dialogue in the entire released film. He sucks as editor, that's for sure. This is a shame cause we never get to see her as an actress and what she could do, she's used as a prop.

Ornella Muti or Persis Khambatta I think fitted well for parts in a CONAN movie as did Sarah Douglas.

*DUNE had excellent casting as well.


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axerules
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 19:09

Hey, Cromulus !

About the consistency, Robert Jordan (R.I.P :cry: ), in the novelization of Ctd corrected a few things: I don't have my book at hand, but I'm sure that Shadizar was no more the name of the country.

BTW, this book was IMHO a decent Conan pastiche and I enjoyed it far more than the second movie...
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 19:15

axerules wrote:
Hey, Cromulus !

About the consistency, Robert Jordan (R.I.P :cry: ), in the novelization of Ctd corrected a few things: I don't have my book at hand, but I'm sure that Shadizar was no more the name of the country.

BTW, this book was IMHO a decent Conan pastiche and I enjoyed it far more than the second movie...

Axe, I dont have the CTD novel by Jordan, however I do have the CONAN THE DESTROYER script , which I did enjoy very much as well more than the finished released movie(the film was chopped up to which doesnt help). I think the story fits well as a small adventure of Conan's, had they wouldve used the James Bond formula of sequels. Arnold wanted out've his CONAN 5 picture contract, after Terminator. I wrote a script review some time ago for MightymcT and company, but I dont know if he put it up yet or will.
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 20:41

For the record, I personally think a lotve the blame for CTD's many inconsistencies and with Subotai getting whacked early on, goes to Thomas(and Conway). While briefly helping out on CONAN THE BARBARIAN movie with Milius, Thomas really enjoyed it and said many positive things about the production and the storyline ect, but after the movie was a huge hit and came out... Thomas blasted it. I think he wanted his own film version by the time he was offered CONAN II, and maybe wanted revenge of sorts. Thomas was also bitter that Stanley Mann was brought on to clean up the final script(the version I own).

Hollywood is messed up, lots of egos and bullshit thrown around of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Mon 24 Sep - 23:52

Einar, as I know, Subotai was supposes to be killed in the begginning of the movie.

The script Thomas wrotte was transformed into a comic book called "The horn of Azoth". It starts with Conan fighting as a gladiator to earn money, then he goes to a tavern and fucks two or three prostitues. In the next morning, someone tells him that Subotai was cought stealing by the "police" of the town and is going to be hanged. Conan runs to save him but when he arrives, Subotai is hanging dead.

In the rest of the comic, there's no companion for Conan. (But he eventually joins a group of people much like in The Destroyer in order to find the Horn of Azoth to avoid the resurrection of that demon. The bad guys steal the horn and resurrect the cthulhu thing and conan smash it into pieces and blah blah). As a curiosity, here Thot Amon had a child, and a personal female kushite guard called Zula. When Conan murders Thot Amon, the child swears revenge, but Conan tells him: "Boy, come to kill me when you are older. Then we will talk. I know everything about revenge". But the kid starts loving Conan because he's so sweet and nice and decides not to kill him.

The script is not as bad as The Destroyer, but I just didn't like it. There's no deep at all in it, it's just comic book and not one of the good ones.

This is what I know, but I don't know how much of the original script was in the comic and how much it was really changed. Thomas said the changes where really very few.

(I hope I can talk about this more detailed in a "comics article" i've been preparing)

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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Tue 25 Sep - 2:41

I'll look foward to your coming article then, Turd.

_________

Fleischer basically said the same thing on Thomas' comic bookish screenplay. His original story was interesting but humorless but was way too long and unfilmable. Their subsequent drafts lost their quality, which led to them getting let go, cause Fleischer didn't feel they were movie writers, they didn't know what they were doing. Fleischer also wanted more humor, but the humor Thomas & Conway were inserting was to comic-book like.. so Fleischer then hired Mann to come in to touch things up and re-write their story into a motion picture (Final Draft).

The whole thing makes me laugh, its like a game of who lies and who swears. Actually I think CONAN THE DESTROYER wound up with more blood than CONAN THE BARBARIAN, which is funny, since Fleischer wanted less blood and violence in his version of CONAN and it was PG-13. Milius trimmed CONAN so much most of the dialogue and blood and gore was eliminated and he doesn't seem to worked up over that fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Tue 25 Sep - 9:51

King Sven wrote:
Eaten by a dozen wolves !

Oh, the irony ! Mr. Green
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Tue 25 Sep - 9:53

Flaming Turd wrote:
Conan runs to save him but when he arrives, Subotai is hanging dead.

What the... ?!!! THAT was not exactly what I had in mind when I was thinking about a great death scene !!! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Conan and the Princess incomplete scene   Tue 25 Sep - 10:24

Me either. It was like "let's get the mongol out of the way". Evil or Very Mad

I'm sure they wouldn't even use Gerry Lopez, but a false body with moustache hanging dead.


They killed Subotai!

Bastards!
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PostSubject: Subotai   Fri 9 Nov - 1:24

Subotai was a good companion for CONAN. How dare they not allow him to return in CONAN THE DESTROYER.
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