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 Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 10:59

"Robert E. Howard was strongly influenced by social Darwinism and by the racial climate of the time. In his stories black and white skinned characters are assumed to be natural enemies because one race can thrive only at the expense of the other. Despite this attitude, Howard seems to have had a fascination with heroic black characters and often portrayed them so positively that they are often more sympathetic to modern readers than the putative heroes of the stories. In addition to Thoth-Amon the villains of the short stories The Hyena and Black Vulmea's Vengeance are good examples of this."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth-Amon

Whoever wrote that entry, clearly didnt read his stories and is pushing Politically Correct BS.

For one, the Stgyians were described as both dark skinned(dusky) and fair(ivory), and possessing aquiline noses, in other words, dark skinned Caucasoids. They are also supposed to Egyptians. The Kushites were however Negroes in Howard's world. For another, there's nothing "heroic" about Thoth-Amon, he was a fairly typical stereotypical villain.



Maybe this was taken at face value because of Thulsa Doom, Earl Jones who is mulatto, they also gave him blue contacts, and a wig of straight hair, and probably lightened his skin somewhat with make-up. Milius seemed to have changed his mind, and went for some kinda mixed-race hybrid or missing link between the Races of man kinda thing, after his original choices dropped out.

The original choice for Thulsa Doom was actually Sean Connery and the description in the Milius scripts matched him or even Christoper Lee(who was a candidate).


Some images of Thoth-Amon





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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 12:03

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
The Kushites were however Negroes in Howard's world.


- NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR -

A quick note, for all our French-reading friends, just to let them know that the word "negro" is not pejorative in English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

In French, on the other hand, this very same word is clearly insulting/offending.

The English equivalent of the French word "negro" is in fact nigger ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger )

I think it was important to set this record straight, in order to clear up all doubts.

Let's just remind everyone that any racist or insulting/offending message posted on this board will get you banned immediately. Thanks for your attention.

************


- MESSAGE DU MODERATEUR -

Une petite précision pour nos amis francophones : le terme "negro" n'est pas péjoratif en anglais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

En français, par contre, ce terme est clairement insultant.

L'équivalent en anglais du mot français "negro" est en fait nigger ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger )

C'est une mise au point importante, pour dissiper tous les doutes.

Je rappelle que tout message à caractère raciste et insultant est suivit directement du bannissement du forum. Merci.


thanx! disco

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 12:24

Negro means Black anyway, its also used in Howards books and even Miilius's script. "The Negro pifighter" for instance.


I really cannot explain how Milius went from Connery/Lee to McRae/Jones, I assume he merged him with Yaro the Kushite/Nubian character of his, and then hired Aldo Sambrell, and then turned Sambrell's Yaro into Ben Davidson's Rexor.


The Thulsa's:

Christopher Lee



Sean Connery




Frank Mcrae:


James Earl Jones





Brak-Rexor

Lou Ferrigno



Ben Davidson



Yaro

Frank McRae


Aldo Sambrell
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 13:04

In Milius script Yaro is described as a tall/ huge and black priest, mentioned as a Kothian, though should be a Kushite.


One gets the impression of Wilt "Bombaata" Chamberlain rather than the overweight and not very intimidating Frank McRae:




An interesting thing about Bombaata's death in CTD, is that mimiced Brak's death in Oliver Stone's script. When the two of them were hand to hand wrestling and rolling around on the floor, and Conan stabbing him to death with a dagger. In the Milius script the only resemblnece to Stone's Brak and Conan battle, is really that Brak uses a bigass axe, same as Rexor in the orgy chamber, and Conan just flips him.
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 13:49

Protoplasme wrote:
Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
The Kushites were however Negroes in Howard's world.


- NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR -

Well for the record, its perfectly normal discussion for Howards and Milius's material, because it deals with Races and Pre-History (semi-fictional). Milius also obviously created a "new race", when he dubbed Earl Jones' Thulsa Doom face as an " early Atlantean, a race that died out" on the DVD commentary.


Here's something on the Human Races of Hyboria:
http://hyboria.xoth.net/races/human_races.htm

Have to be careful with the wiki though, politics are rampart there and unfortunately activism is on the web and real world, was just pointing out some things, as that article is conflating dark skinned to meaning black skinned, and possibly mixing it with Milius' finished movie version.

I seen this done on some movie boards (imdb.com), like when some were mentioning Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson as playing Howard's dark Cimmerian, some saying Cimmerians were blacks, when this isnt the case.


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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 13:50

Also to be noted, an early version of the Milius script had "two exotically clad Nubians" holding the snake symbol of Doom during the raid on the Cimmerian village. study

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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Fri 26 Oct - 14:02

MightyMcT wrote:
Also to be noted, an early version of the Milius script had "two exotically clad Nubians" holding the snake symbol of Doom during the raid on the Cimmerian village. study

Yep, thats from Prevue's strange script excerpts. Wonder what version they used, because there was no mention of Nubians, Kushites or Kothians present at that scene. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 18:32

Speaking of "races",

the Pict scout in the cimmerian village attack is depPICTed as germanic. Right? Not a small thin but still muscled with dark hair and skin (not black, but dark skin, you know).

Maybe Millius took the real history picts from Scotland, who as some other celtics had red or yellow hair.





That would also explain the tattoos.









But in the original concept drawing, the pict has some australian aboriginal look.



Which changes the concept, as the the tattoos would not be tattoos, but War Paint.

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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 19:20

Yeah, but those are modern interpretations, often taking liberties. Interesting comparison with those Australian natives there.

Here's a wax carving based on original contemporary Pictish artwork:



Thats the interesting about Howard, his Bran Mak Morn Picts were made into generic regular "Celts", however they're nearly indistinguishable from American Indians in his Hyborian Age incarnations,lol.

Picts in Latin, meant "Painted", because they supposedly painted their bodies, and were known for being dark, often short people found in modern day Scotland. The Gauls(modern france) were known for liming their hair(thus giving them white-blondish hair).

Not sure why they gave Franco that ridiculous red hair wig, he would've looked more in character with his dark hair I think.

That "King Artur" movie with Clive Owen used Picts, but erroneously referred to them as "Woads". That movie was crap anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 20:04

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
"Robert E. Howard was strongly influenced by social Darwinism and by the racial climate of the time. In his stories black and white skinned characters are assumed to be natural enemies because one race can thrive only at the expense of the other. Despite this attitude, Howard seems to have had a fascination with heroic black characters and often portrayed them so positively that they are often more sympathetic to modern readers than the putative heroes of the stories. In addition to Thoth-Amon the villains of the short stories The Hyena and Black Vulmea's Vengeance are good examples of this."

Hm

I think we must separate two very different things:

1.- The social and cultural racism of the time. Sthereotypes.

2.- The personal and subjetive point of view of REH about racism.


I think both are in REH writtings, as the social and cultural thoughs are no doubt affecting him -as any human being who lived there. That's unconcious, so if you can blame of REH being racist, you should blame an entire society by extention.

Now, what is important is what a person chooses. You can agree with that common beliefs, or you can disagree and try to find your own personal point of view.

I think REH, as Lovecraft, was way too fucking young and -even though he was very very literate- he was inmmature and was still in process of becoming a mature writter-thinker.

Probably, as happened with Lovecraft, his -theorycal and supposed- racism would have been slowly faded as he would have grown stronger in his more and more basic idea of individualism and freedom against social represive laws. (Read "barbarism vs civilization")

Lovecraft writes about Howard, after his dead:

Quote :
"He was a liberal in politics and a bitter foe of civic injustice in any form."

Lovecraft was atracted to the ideas of Hitler about creating a perfect society whose values where Art, Culture and Purity. Of course, innocent and naive, he didn't know that it really meant the elimination of anything which was not considered Art, Culture or Purity by the Führer. And of course that would include his surrealistic and too oniric works. The führer would not have liked Cthulhu Mythos Razz . He only liked fairy tales with him as the hero.

Lovecraft believed that beauty could not be evil, and that's why his evil is allways creepy looking. He was blinded by the shine of the rising third raich, but his letters friends alerted him about the hidden uglyness of nazism. At the end of his days, he declared he was ashamed of his early beliefs, and he even married a jewish woman.

Talking about REh, In www.conan.com they posted some very interesting letters of him talking about the rising of Hitler and Mussolini. He is against Hitler, and even he hates Von Hindenburg -president of the German Republic who was initially against the idea of Hitler becoming Canciller- Reh prefers him better than Adolph. Still, he expresses his admiration by his militar and political skills.

Quote :
To H.P. Lovecraft, March 2, 1932
I note that in Germany, by the way, the citizenship of Hitler has been questioned to the extent of forcing him to withdrew from the presidential race. I hope Von Hindenburg carries the election. During war days I would cheerfully have lighted a torch to burn him at the stake, but now I think he is one of the strongest stabilizing factors in Europe, and that his re-election would be to the advantage of not only Germany, but the entire world. He was doubtless the ablest general of any nationality in the Great War, and now seems to be about the most level-headed statesman on the Continent.

More clarifiyng point of view, two years later -Hitler was named Canciller in 1933-.

Quote :
To H.P. Lovecraft, ca. December 1934
As for war, that will come when international capital is ready. I do not believe, and have never believed, that Mussolini, Hitler and the other European strong-arm, he-man dictators are anything but figure-heads and tools for international capitalism.

Reh is also more close to Russia than to Germany.

Quote :
To Tevis Clyde Smith, probably ca. December 1930
People under-rate Russia. The potentialities of world-conquest lie in the minds and calloused hands of those mujiks. The whole world is quaking and rocking, and an undercurrent of insanity is bubbling and seething beneath the surface. Every time the wind blows out of the East I smell the reek of war in it. Nothing is stable now; we live in the midst of the Age of Change. International convulsions and gigantic upheavals are hovering in the very air of the world. The richest countries in the world writhe in starvation while the rich folk go blindly to their own doom, like swine who are unaware that the muck they tread on is alive with waking serpents. The wings of Melek Taus hover over the world, the winds whisper of revolt, anarchy, war and red ruin for all the sons of men.

Already Mussolini’s feet are unsteady in Italy and last night France was without a government. In Scotland ninety thousand men go out on a strike, and social unreast spreads over the British Isles. In Russia men on trial for treason fling accusations at the powers of the world. And Italy is accused of forming secret alliances with Bulgaria, Turkey, Austria and Germany to overthrow the conditions imposed on them by defeat in the last war. Well, let the nations cut each other’s throats, and let war sweep the planet clean. When its done we can all lie down in the grateful sleep of everlasting oblivion and the clean winds and the seas will erase from the poor old world the scars of mankind’s existence.

What a letter, uh? Wink


Quote :
To H.P. Lovecraft, ca. December 1932
The old, old fundamental of kingship: one man or one small class of men ruling the rest under one or the other of the ten million high-sounding names used to dress the raw reality of slavery.


But this is my favourite one. Shocked If something, REH was not naive about war and violence. He knows what is it for. He is far away of being what today we know as "pacifist", but he has not a romantizied and BOURGEOUS image of war as Lovecraft has. I think he sees war AS A WARRIOR. His honesty makes me really feel respect for him.


Quote :
To H.P. Lovecraft, December 5, 1935

You say some wars are waged in defense of civilization. Can you name a recent one? Was it the Mexican War in which a Latin culture was simply replaced, in some regions, by an Anglo-Saxon culture? Was it the Civil War, in which an agricultural oligarchy was crushed by an industrial oligarchy? Was it the Spanish-American War in which our capitalists grabbed an island for its wealth in sugar? Or was it the world war in which the Germans butchered to expand Kultur, and the Allies fought “to make the world safe for democracy”? (And incidentally to protect Wall Street’s European investments.) Or is it the present tussle in Africa where the [derogatory term for Italians] are civilizing the benighted Ethiopians with poison gas and dum-dum bullets?

I find it hard to understand your surprize because I say that civilized men always claim the highest motives, even when perpetrating the most infamous atrocities. ...

You don’t have to go that far back. Your friend Mussolini is a striking modern-day example. In that speech of his I heard translated he spoke feelingly of the expansion of civilization. From time to time he has announced: “The sword and civilization go hand in hand!” “Wherever the Italian flag waves it will be as a symbol of civilization!” “Africa must be brought into civilization!” It is not, of course, because of any selfish motive that he has invaded a helpless country, bombing, burning and gassing both combatants and non-combatants by the thousands. Oh, no, according to his own assertions it is all in the interest of art, culture and progress, just as the German war-lords were determined to confer the advantages of Teutonic Kultur on a benighted world, by fire and lead and steel. Civilized nations never, never have any selfish motives for butchering, raping and looting; only horrid barbarians have those. ... When Germany surged across defenseless Belgium that too was in defense of civilization, as represented by themselves. But the Allies, too, defended civilization. Each side claimed to be the sole defender of civilization in that carnage. You say that “the fruits of civilization must be preserved at all costs.” Just who is trying to loot these fruits? The Ethiopians?

Laughing Eat that, Lovecraft. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 20:15

You think those letters are legit? Howard in no way comes across as Liberal, if he was then its perhaps a completely different definition today,lol.

Social Darwinism was popular back then, Racialism more than Racism was Howard, among multiple writers and even Intellectuals in those days. I dont think he or any other should be judged on that with our current sentimentalities.

I remember reading some article about Howard writing a letter to Adolf Hitler, or Hitler writing one to him in the early 30's. Lots of stories out there on the web though.

Reading unaltered RE Howard, Liberal just doesnt come to mind in the slightest. Moreover watching Conan The Barbarian and calling it Liberal, is beyond sanity.

More like Bullshit from Lovecraft, or whomever owns the rights to the estates. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 21:00

Nope, not liberal as the meaning it owns today, but as the essential part of it, that is the individual freedom and the limitation of government power.

It's a posture shared essentially by artists of any kind, freedom of choice over impossed morals. (It's far away from anarchy, as it's not a political movement. It's more specificaly, a humanistic posture). You say it's modern? No, man. Look for writters as Henry Ibsen, 1828-1906. Even he was a well known burguess, he started writting about freedom of choice in women way years before "feminism" was even an invented word. And don't get me wrong, he is not feminist in the stupid way this word is too often used today. He is also a "liberal" not in the way it is used today. He is in the way he very clearly puts into question the values and morals of the society. When they become anti-human, then something is wrong.

Just remember how REH social life was. He was in the side of marginals and "loosers", rejected because he was sensitive and imaginative. And he allways was proud and honest with himself about it, doesn't matter how much would it have hurted him.

I don't know what's so hard to believe REH would share that kind of "liberalism" or whatever-you-want-to-fucking-call-it, not like Ibsen or any other writter, but in his own personal style. Just think about the picts against Rome. It's a very rough way of talking about the same theme.

Have you ever watched "The Whole Wide World"? You can say it's not a legit source, but, well, then believe what you want. Those letters where published in books some way years ago and are avaiable for your checking. If you don't want to believe them... I supposse you are free. Anyway, I agree there's tons of bullshit in the web, and any retard can writte his drunken dreams and post them as The Truth. But, man, I personally think that it's not so hard to see what's fake and what's something you can trust.

Well, maybe sometimes it is, yeah Rolling Eyes but that's another storie. Mr. Green

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/l/h-p-lovecraft/selected-letters-i.htm

http://www.donherron.com/reh_letters_reviews.html

John Millius, even being a declared fascist, among a lot of other reads in his script, could be read "liberal" in THAT meaning I was talking earlier when Conan chooses to think for himself, better than letting being commanded by Doom's will. That's not faithful with fascist ideologies where the individual has no right to choose by himself, as he has given all his will to the more prepared and intelligent ruler, who, by being essentially superior, is basically your brain.

He even refuses to take the place of Thulsa Doom in the top of that so nazi-art looking pyramid, and becoming the new führer of the children of doom, who find their "lights" empty, and now, must learn to think for themselves.

That's nietzsche, not Hitler. Nietzsche was essentially a "liberal", in that way I talked about earlier. My will, not anyone's else. And YOUR WILL, and your right of fighting for it.

THAT'S the point where Nietzsche differs from fascist ideologies, when Nietzsche impulses people to be free, fascism stops and keeps that power for the rulers.

That's the spirit of Conan, freedom, no king, no ruler, no other man's desire. Only you know what is good for you. Only in yourself can trust.

No political read there. It's a personal attittude.

Artist are not politicals. It's a different language. I hope you understand this.
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 21:11

Flaming Turd wrote:
Nope, not liberal as the meaning it owns today, but as the essential part of it, that is the individual freedom and the limitation of government power.

Ok, thats more what we call Libertarian, though the individual freedom and limited Government can also be assigned to Paleo-Conservativism.

I am not big on terms, because they often change or are mis-used.

That bio-pic of Howard wasnt bad, I enjoyed it for what it was. I remember one of the drawings they used for Conan done by Howard in the movie, looked more like it came from Milius' "Conan The Barbarian" film.
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 21:31

Another thing I wanted to add also, was that Howard's CONAN though wasnt really all about personal selfishness or even Milius' version. I never bought into that whole "Rage against the Establishment" thing with Howard nor even with Milius. Milius loved the Military as well.

I think both Howard and Milius praised that "rugged Individualism" and acted like they hated "Civilization" , because they wanted to seem like rogues and anti-Socials and used the Conan character to do it. Sure the difference is though that were normal middle class people, who did like government and rights under the law, but were probably day dreamers, that dreamt of some "Glorious Golden Age in the Classical World".

However the thing is, they both made Conan into a Civilized ruler of a Civilization nation and then a leader of an Empire, and they had to make Conan go beyond petty his own selfish feelings in order to become King and leader of man. So, Conan was no longer fighting against the very thing Howard supposedly made him react against, which was Civilization. Conan fought more against corruption and decadence in the Imperium, than he ever did for freedom for native tribes and crap like that. Conan's favorite job was as mercenary or legitimate General working to subjugate distant lands.

The CONAN character was to a empty shell of a character, a kids dream which Howard knew would sell well to an pulp audience. His Conan always was getting into brawls at the local tavern, fucking whores, getting pissed drunk and saving the world from some unworldly harbinger of destruction and then riding out on horseback while never looking back, only to repeat the same exact thing the next day and so on.

Another thing, was that "Noble Savage" concept was very popular in those days because of Burroughs' Tarzan character, and many authors started turning Roman's into supervillains.

I think Howards most original,mature and true even to his own mindset was not Conan as popularly claimed, but Kull. Even Milius preferred Kull rather than Conan. Milius also used Kull more for the basis of his movie than Howard's Conan.
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PostSubject: Re: Wiki turning Thoth-Amon into a Black man?   Sat 27 Oct - 22:34

Terms and ideologies are aged and deformed, but the roots of them are not. There are reasons why ancient mayan believed the sun was turned into a jaguar every night. Today it sounds stupid, but the reason they believed that was really strong, and universal.

(No I don't know the reason, it's just an example) Razz

Howard, Millius, The Pope, Ricky Martin, anybody... We are too complex and we have tons of faces, we just can't define a person's belief with a couple of words. It would have nice to know more sides of REH, as he was obssessed -hm, maybe not the right word... or it is?- with only one topic. That's why I loved the biopic, cause you can see REH being described by other persons, not by himself. I can't shallow the "modern warrior" concept of Howard if it's not mixed with his weakness and his vulnerable side. When you know the vulnerable side of a character, his strong side is then, really strong. You know, worst battles are inside ourselves, and all that shit. Wink

So, basically it's Robert Howard as a person in process of maturing, as a writter -and, well, as a man too, sure. And sure there's a hurted children desire of revenge against whoever in these stories. There's a kiddie side in all this stuff, and it's the reason i will allways say they need some sense of humour, that is, not showing god heroes, but strong human beings, humans in the end with all their glories and miseries -see Kurosawa's characters-.

The Millius movie touches some very deep and really interesting themes, and that's I think, and I think you will agree with me, the essence of it's power and strenght. That's why a kid's dream works so well as a mature movie, when it could perfectly been a joke. The point is: what's wrong with being a mature man and enjoy a kid's dream movie? Absolutely nothing. If you let me tell you this, every movie is somehow a kid's dream.

So, we go back to this famous place: how nice would have been he could have go through his instinct of self-destruction and survived to writte more stuff.

Maybe he would have started writting in a different way as he was more and more in contact with the world.

Or maybe its new writtes would have been crap.


Maybe it doesn't matter.
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