Old King

I have been trying to understand the passage when Conan is being chased by the wolves and hides in the cave .... The scene where he finds the "special" sword. Who is that king? Is it Crom?

Nah, it's not Crom. You should listen to the audio commentary... Milius says "These are Atlanteans. This was an Atlantean general, who was put there with his harem, when he died." Hence the name of the sword that Conan finds in the crypt: the Atlantean Sword!

We don't know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't...

That's what's so wonderful about the CONAN movie, it's a movie designed to make you think and want to know more. Not only about the film's Literary pulp character but more importantly the Ancient World it was based on, which Howard, Stone and Milius all so heavily borrowed from.

The Race of Giants that Conan's father was talking about to his son, and again Akiro with the Titans, Great Kings and Gods about couldve been this man and his Atlantean kin.

Maybe Conan was actually seeing his future... maybe he was to share this faith after he leaves his kingdom of Aquilonia like Romulus did as the first king of the Roman's... was to venture out by himself never to be seen again... Conan was to be the lone king that also disappears to leave his throne to Conn while he seeks new adventure as the aging lion.

Perhaps Crom guided Conan's destiny and nothing occurred by mere chance or accident... like that Wolf Witch knew all to well. I like to think Crom passed on his sword to Conan, to slay the great Serpent god, Set whose physical vessel was Thulsa Doom--a minion. Cause the gods don't act directly, but through great heroes and champions like Achilles, Hercules and Perseus, etc.

Valeria in the script, after Conan was resurrected, mentions to Akiro, that the spirits must "heal the hands that wield the Sword of Vengeance"... She knew the gods watched over and guided his fate...

I thought the skeleton was Crom!!!

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

Maybe Conan was actually seeing his future...

Some of that is there no doubt, Cromulus. In some poetic way, but no doubt. Think about Kull stories were Kull is always thinking about the meaning of time and the futility of one man's life and so, specially in that "Thuzun-Tune" mirrors tale where he really goes too deep and enters in a depression. Point is REH had also a lot of poems about kingdoms turn into ruins and thrones full of dust and so... Nothing last, so take life as it comes, time enough for dreaming in the grave!

I believe this scene originated from the L. Sprague DeCamp and Lin Carter additions to Robert E. Howard's Conan stories (Ace Books series). It is from the first chapter of the first book entitled "The Thing in the Crypt". Like the DeCamp/Carter writing, the original script had the skeleton coming to life and fighting Conan. However, I remember reading somewhere that the idea was nixed due to budget constraints and a lack of adequate special effects to pull it off (or something along those lines at least). Although I think this is a great scene, it would have been spectacular if they had followed through with the original script and had the advances in CGI and special effects in 1982 that we have today. DeCamp and Carter have long been criticized for their tinkering with the Conan character, but this particular passage they wrote is perhaps one of the best writings they ever contributed to the franchise.

On another note, I also remember reading a suggestion somewhere that the skeleton could have possibly been the corpse of Kull the Atlantean, it is after all an Atlantean sword. I don't know if Kull was actually any inspiration to Stone or Milius for this, but it would fit well into the Conan mythos as Kull was a forerunner to Conan in the Hyborean world. In my opinion, "Conan the Barbarian" really could have been named "Kull the Barbarian"...After all, in Howard's writings, Thulsa Doom was Kulls nemesis and never appeared in any of the Conan stories.

Of course this is all speculation, both Kull and Conan were very similarly constructed...Kull was an Atlantean and Conan was a Cimmerian, a race that evolved from the prior Atlanteans, and both were barbarians who rose from obscurity to become warriors, conquerors, and kings by their own hands. The first Conan story written by Howard was "The Phoenix on the Sword". In actuality, it was a rewrite of the Kull story "By this Axe I rule". Some people have said that Howard was unsatisfied with the direction his Kull stories were headed and decided to 'resurrect' him as Conan. Clearly there was at least some inspriation taken from the Kull stories for "Conan the Barbarian" and if the skeleton represents Kull, then perhaps that is a simple homage to Howard's lesser known barbarian creation. Perhaps it is a greater homage to Howard's recurring themes of the decline of majestic civilizations and the devolvement into barbarism.

The connection to Kull was in the Stone script. Aoster (so far atleast as I know of) the only one with Milius' 1st Draft, that can either confirm or deny any direct Kull links or animated Skeleton in his vision.

The skeleton was absent in the Stone version, Conan had no special sword.

Lol... ok ok... I'll dig it out again. I did BTW find a document scanner on campus, so I should have it scanned some time soon.

Quote :

scene 92: THE CAVE
Darkness -- a shaft of light coming from above. Conan has fallen about ten feet. He is on his back on the stone floor of a small hallway. Crude steps have been cut in the smooth vertical wall of the crevice. Conan gets up, touches these, he feels the smoothness of the wall, it is polished by hand, not by the elements. he looks at the triangle of light above him. The snouts of the wolves can bee seen and the scratching of paws heard. Snow and ice fall on Conan. He retreats back into the darkness.

Scene 93:DIFFERENT ANGLE
Crouching low, trying to see, he crawls back, away from the spot of light. He feels something around him, reaches out and gathers in what seems to be rotted cloth and clumps of hard fragments, dry and dusty.

he gathers up some of these. They feel as if they might be combustible, and he withdraws a flint and steel from his leather girdle. He strikes expertly and the timber glows -- he blows on it and a flame ignites. Light flickers weak - matting. Smoke swirls up and out towards the crevice.

(CONTINUED)

Scene 93: CONTINUED:
Conan looks around him. The walls are patterned with polished stone carvings, intricate yet bold. Bizarre numerology and lettering are interlaced with geometric designs.

His mouth opens as he looks about on the floor: bones, skeletons of what must have been scores of human beings, wrapped up in the matted clothing, the flesh having fallen away.it reeks of ancient death. Then Conan turns and gasps.

Scene 94: CONANS POV
A huge throne. on that throne is an immense skeletal warrior, dressed in tarnished green copper armor. The skull-face seems to be screaming, and the huge green helmet hangs precariously on it. He would be eight feet tall if he were standing -- a different race.

Scene 95: CLOSE - CONAN
His eyes are wide with the barbarian's fear of the supernatural. But they take in something else. He looks down slightly, a feverish gleam on his countenance.

Scene 96: THE SWORD
Across the knees of the ancient general is a sword, massive, sheathed in leather and bronze. its hilt and pommel reflect ancient symbols, wrought with the highest workmanship.

Scenes 97-101 cover the sword finding more and has the exit. No references to a living skeleton or more about who it was.

Thanks Aoster...Well, I'm pretty sure that I read about the skeleton coming to life in one of the early scripts somewhere...and I think I know just where, but I'm going to have to dig it out. I think it was a "Starblazer Special" type magazine, so there may not be a whole lot of credibility to it. Anyways, I'll go looking in my stash and if I find it, I'll scan it and post it.

Cromulus-Hey, I wasn't aware that there was actually a reference to Kull in any of the scripts, can you give me any details?

I mentioned it in official Oliver Stone script review:

http://www.conancompletist.com/EN/stonescriptreview.htm

Kull is mentioned and it gives explanation as to why Conan fights Doom, in this version he's Kull reincarnate. Milius' version still retains much of Stone's spirit and ideas, although left unexplained. Milius' Conan is more like Howard's Kull character.

Thanks Cromulus...
Well, I found what I was looking for...
Starblazers Special Volume 1 no. 3 (1984)
I remember very well frothing at the mouth when I found this on a newstand in 1984...SHIT! was that really 24 years ago?!!!

Well, I guess I am in error about it being in the original script, the article simply states it was in the original story (lower middle section). Hey, cut me a little slack though, I probably haven't read this article since I first bought it in 1984. I still think that I have read something somewhere about the original plans being changed...Oh well, I could be imagining that. Anyways, I goofed, but it's not like I'm not running for public office or anything like that. The older I get, the better I was...If I can just remember who that is...

I would worry about,lol.

I was just re-reading the Stone Review. In Stone's script there is fire breathing horses:

Quote :

There is also the Stygian horses, who spout flames from their nostrils

In the Milius scripts during the battle of the mounds, the Riders of Doom horses breath out fire too, but not sure whether this was figuratively speaking via exhaustion and the heat from the weather.

There was an old interview though can't remember if Milius or Cobb's they speak about the ancient general and the civilization this tomb belong to, they said it was POST-Atlantis. Which makes A LOT of sense since the symbols in the crypt and in the sword are descriptions of the fall of Atlantis, the volcanoes, the tidal waves, and the ships the atlanteans used to survive and find another land. So, the general can't be Kull but maybe a descendant. Also they say this king was probably a Conan ancestor, maybe not directly of him but of the Cimmerians. So, the people from the tomb would be descendants of atlanteans and pro-pro-aryans, and the Cimmerians would be pro-aryans.

Quote :

I did BTW find a document scanner on campus, so I should have it scanned some time soon.

All of the Sons of Aryas are ultimately Atlanteans or Lemurians or some mix. Not sure where Conan was, location wise, but the Atlantean tomb had to be somewhere near Zamora or Khitai in the East, which is far away from Cimmeria or Conan's god. Theres no way Conan walked/or jogged 2,000 miles back to the West Coast with iron chains on his legs while being chased by wolves.

I suppose the only way to rectify is if cause the general was buried in the mound, which really was a subterranean burial chamber. Crom being the lord of all mountains, earth and mounds ect, probably was associated with also the earthquakes which were to have freed him from the Mongols and Red Hair somewhere in Turan.

Mmm, I think Milius version of Cimmeria is not the same as Howard at all, in some interview Milius placed Cimmeria in Russia and in others in Germany. He relates Cimmerians with ancient Goths and other germanic tribes, he said they looked the same and also had same beliefs -see Walhalla. Milius' Cimmerians are not pre-celts or pre-gaelics, though the Cimmerian viallge has a lot of celtic symbology and artifacts.

This changes the REH map a lot, cuz in Milius' world Cimmeria would be pretty near to Hyrkania. I think he had a more realistic map in his mind and simply forgot about REH's one thoug in a begginning it was going to be included in the movie.

I'm thinking, it would be nice to have a map of the Milius' version of the Hyborian world.


Another interesting thing, Conan is took from Cimmeria to Vanaheim (place of the Wheel, right??) BY FEET, AS A KID. That is a feet trip from Ireland to North Germany. Thinking that the britanic islands are still part of the continent is still an unhuman trip.

And more, later Conan was took from Vanaheim to Hyrkania in a ox wagon, sat in loto position. That makes no sense because it implies an ox wagon trip from North Germany to Mongolia...

This all makes much more sense if Cimmeria and Vanaheim are both in Russia. I think it's not wrong to point Milius was inspired by true historical Cimmerians much more than REH's ones. Cimmerians and Scythians lived in Ukraine and Russia. The vanirs of Milius would be huns as their helmets show, not really pre-germans. Probably Red Hair was a member of a Kurgan tribe, some pre-celtic or pre-germanic habitants of the Russian steppes.

Shit, later Conan and Subotai run from Hyrkhania to Zamora, and that motherfucking implies THEY RUN FROM MONGOLIA TO ITALY OR SPAIN!!!!!



I'm not really sure what Zamora exactly was in REH's version though is surely a mediterranean land. Shit.

In Milius' version everything had to happen in close lands, so probably every land in this version is placed in and around a prehistoric Russia.

No one seems to have noticed the red parts of my quote.

Snow and ice?
Copper armor on a technologically advanced Atlantean general? What he can lead the army, but he can't afford steel? Though a steel sword is ok.....
Maybe I should continue with the sword's scenes....
Interesting stuff nonetheless.

Ey, man, I read it though I didn't think about the red words too much, sorry, better when you make some commentaries

Snow and ice, hah if you know how much problems they had in Segovia with the fucking snow for the Cimmerian scenes -it snowed in the morning and the sun melted the snow in hours-... If i'm not wrong the tomb scenes were shoot in the mountains of Madrid -i live in the city of Madrid, the mountains are like 1 hour and a half by car-. In Madrid the snow is very rare, though the mountains are usually covered with snow in winter. But you can never be sure. Probably they simply decided to forget about snow.


Copper and all that, I think the copper is still in the movie version, lot of green artifacts that looks like it. Also makes the civilization older than the actual ones which probably are in Iron age. Steel was probably a exteremely rare material and even in Atlantis only some few weapons were made by it. Well that's my explanation of course. But I don't think they were so highly advanced civilization ala Marvel comics or so... Don't believe they had spaceships or laser guns and so... More probably a highly advanced civilization in terms of culture and spiritual knowledge, ala Grecian or Rome.

Aoster, Doom wore the same green copper armor too in the movie.

___________

Yeah, I think ultimately it was Milius' fascination with Russia, Mongols and Turkomen that won over. Although Stone seemed to of had very similar ideas beforehand. He had Conan and the Red Brotherhood fighting Chinese and Babylonians. Milius' Conan is a strange mix of Germanic and Turko-Mongol in the movie. The original idea called for the Cimmerians to have been nomadic. They had those cart/tent contraptions designed by Cobb. I didnt like that idea, was too gypsish. Stone's Cimmerians were quasi-Amerindians, boy Conan wore moccasin shoes.


I think lack of certain filming locations no doubt played a hand on certain things. There was some talk of filming it in Russia and China, then it was moved to Bulgaria and then finally Spain.

Vanahaim in Milius mind looked like Afghanistan, complete opposite of Scandinavia,lol.

Cimmeria had to be like the Ural Mountains or some shit. The real Cimmeria was near the Crimea and Black Sea. Maybe this version Milius chose to work off of to some degree. Where the Crimea was dominated historically by greeks, cimmerians, goths, rus, iranians, huns, bulgars and tartars.

I guess I was going by Socrates's recount of Atlantis's tecno-wonder. Not REH's version ala Kull.

Then again the sword is described as showing the civilization as post atlantis, so i guess that makes it make sense to me now.

Though the mound scene was on a mountain I think, and not listed as a mound in the desert.

Turd, come to think of it...In Stone's version Conan went from the slave pen in Hyperborea to somehow ending up in Zamora, all on foot mind you,lol. Now that's one heck of a trek.

A map of Hyboria I think is seen in Mongol/Turanian tent with the Genghis character talking about what is best in life.

Thulsa Doom has to be by the Vilayet Sea, probably the beach Conan was on and explains the Mongol wizard of the mounds. So thats still partve Turan. Hyrkania and Khitai were more towards the East. So the Atlantean was very far away from home..maybe he was Lemurian instead? HAHA

Here's one of the original maps:

http://fantasymaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/hyborian_big_map.jpg

Alotve work the Vanir had to do though, many mountain chains between Vanaheim and Khitai. Shouldve called the movie, CONAN THE MOUNTAINEER or CONAN THE RUNNER.

The reality there's no way for Hyboria to be made up of continents, more like selected allegorical nations sowed together by the imagination or microsized Pangaea with just quasi-countries instead of continents. Otherwise each nation sould be nearly a sub-continent onto itself.

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

The reality there's no way for Hyboria to be made up of continents, more like selected allegorical nations sowed together by the imagination or microsized Pangaea with just quasi-countries instead of continents. Otherwise each nation sould be nearly a sub-continent onto itself.

Yeah. That's why I thought the Milius' map would simple be drawn in and around Russia.

Also, if Cimmeria is in Crimea, no way the REH version fits with that, otherwise this piece of land should have been moved in a very strange way lol.

http://fantasymaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/hyborian_big_map.jpg



Not much can be seen there, sadly. I wonder if that would be the "Vialyet sea" -which apparently wouldn't be that big- or if it's simply a river of some short.

I always wonder what the Genghis Khan was doing in the movie..he looked very important, like he was conquering Hyboria there or something,LOL.

hey Dan, how about just keeping all of your posts confined inside the "Thread for Dan" thread for a while. Just until you get accustomed to things here? I'm not trying to run you off or minimize your contributions here, it's just that that might be a more adequate place to air out your thoughts and for us to help you out. What do you think Dan?