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 Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

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Flaming Turd
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 21 Nov - 20:20

The diying-resurrection thing is a very powerful symbol used in many cultures, and it's not literal -(not tales about zombies) Mr. Green - but a methaphor of coming of age. You know, "the boy dies, the man is born".

Also, when Conan is awake again, he is stronger than ever. And more concentrated than ever in his will: kill Motherfucker Doom.

So, when the hero dies, he methaphorically takes a trip to the underworld where he would get the information/magic weapon/strenght to kill his enemy.

When Conan first comes to kill Doom he is very silly. He goes alone, unamered, takes a imbecile disguise and shows everyone his stoled snake pendant. It's like he is so self confident, so proud of his strenght, than he believes that he can kill Doom alone. The prize of this idiot strategy is death.

Almost.

After his recovering, he is not an idiot anymore.

He goes with two other warriors, back door, hiden and prepared. Sword in hand.


And in a comparison with Doom, it's interesting how snakes have been allways related with longevity -(and even immortality)-. Why? Because they change their skin, being born again. Somehow it's the symbol of dying-resurrection again. It's clear now why Conan, afetr "dying and being born" again is now capable of confronting Doom, now they both are equals.


Also it's very interesting your comparison of the Father with Prometheus. Why do you say that? I would like to know more. Prometheus stoled the fire of Gods and gave it to the humans.

The "fire of the gods" it's knowledge, it's a secret they only know. Heh.

The secret of steel, only known by Giants and Gods, and taken by the cimmerians -who the Father incarnates essentially-.

They took the secret of steel and bring it to his people. that's why cimmerians are so powerful. Their weapons are stronger than any other, and their spiritual relation with their swords makes them become the toughest fuckers of the mountains.


As you say, "Father is the light, Doom is the night" of Conan... Doom is another character who looks to take the "secret of the gods", but his objetive is not bring it to his people like Prometheo, but keeping that power for himself.
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 21 Nov - 21:10

Hercules burnt himself at the pyre and was reborn too. Interesting Conan was to have fought a lion in the Tower of the Serpent's garden, and kill it with his bare hands in the script. That could be another parallel again?!

One more thing on Apollo, he fought the great Python and killed it at Mount Parnassus, but was made to pay for this murderous act. Many myths and stories were conflated though, as some think that the Python and Typhon were conflated with eachother by contemporary people.

I have a feeling Belit/Valeria, was also modeled on the Roman goddess Bellona, this goddess was popular in post renaissances literature well into Shakespeare's Macbeth story. The name Valeria is even appropriate

Bellona's attribute is a sword and she is depicted wearing a helmet and armor, she armed with a sword. She came to battlefields and accompanied the dead to the underworld.

Valeria- means eternal youth and beauty.

Bellona with Athena whom was also an armed warrior goddess, and was a helper of many heroes, including Heracles, Jason, and Odysseus. Often Wings were one of her attributes.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 21 Nov - 21:16

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:

Bellona's attribute is a sword and she is depicted wearing a helmet and armor, she armed with a sword. She came to battlefields and accompanied the dead to the underworld.

That's a valkirye.

But, the role of Valeria is not coming to take Conan's soul to heaven, but keeping him alive.

scratch

Maybe she has become a valkirye in the sense that "she chooses" who must die and who don't. She chooses Rexor.

What do you think?
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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 21 Nov - 21:36

The Valeria in the movie is a protector and does seem to associated with helping heroic warriors from death and resurrection herself. If you follow the CONAN THE DESTROYER script, you get a sense she's still watching over him.


Quote :
After Conan slays Dagoth and Malak stabs it again, we see something shining as bright as the Sun, as the camera falls backs, it's really Conan's Medallion glowing, then the awesome close triumphant shot of Conan.

So Conan Medallion had a significant part, it seemed to Conan that Valeria was inside it kind of. Very interesting, but yet it was completely deleted in the film, replaced with the gold Wheel of Pain.

http://conancompletist.forumactif.com/conan-the-barbarian-f3/conan-the-destroyer-script-review-t682.htm

In the KING CONAN: CROWN OF IRON scripts, Valeria returns in the form of a look-a-like female, who at the end of the movie turns out to be really Valeria.



She definitely was a goddess, perhaps always was?
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 22 Nov - 8:25

Flaming Turd wrote:
REH own vision of life, very male chauvinist, as he didn't really knew what a woman is.

Shocked scratch scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 22 Nov - 16:57

Razz

Actually is not known if Howard had intimate relationship with any other woman than Novalyne. Plus, they never had sex. She was her only known female friend, besides her mother. And his relationship with his mother was superior-inferior, something like he worshiped his mother as a goddess. Novalyne was the first one he could see as an equal.

There is a little comic strip in the darkhorse "Conan" comics called "Tales of Two-Gun-Bob" wich illustrates some texts from the letters he used to writte to his friends. In one of them he says he has been allways far away from girls since his childhood, because he wasn't interested in her world and they wasn't interested on his. Plus, he say that he allways finded fear in the eyes of the girls who looked at him. He declared not being a "ladys man". He used to watch how his friends started become interested in girls, and he continued writting and exploring his internal world of male warriors.

Novalyne was the first who was not afraid of him, and could even find him "cute" enough to get closer to him.

And, more concrete, his works are about males. Even though his female characters are allways warriors like Sonya or Belit -who are not too different from his male characters, but have tits- or stupid princess who can't do anything else but go into troubles, scream in horror, and be fucked after being rescued.

In the movie "The whole wide world" Novalyne is allways trying to take Bob to her side, but he keeps in his own, again and again. Novalyne is interested in topics he haven't even thinking about. She would have like to introduce him into the world, the social world, but he prefered to stay in his internal world, because he believed it was greater. Maybe that is the reason of the title of the movie, a man who is outside the world, but has inside of him another one, which is infinite.

But he was not open to the energy of a woman.

Maybe saying he was "male chauvinist" is not exact, because he didn't saw them as "inferior". But it's clear he was not into the female psyche at all. They were unknown for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 22 Nov - 17:57

Kenneth Turan's NEW WEST magazine article was pretty good, it also goes into Howard's ambiguous and contradicting mind and personality.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 29 Nov - 12:06

Maybe Milius saw the Atlantean King as Abe Lincoln? Both were phsycally abnormally tall as well.

Mr. Green

This chamber was clearly modeled on Roman style catacombs:

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Wed 5 Dec - 21:50

Do you have any pic of some roman catacomb? That is really interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 6 Dec - 0:09

I'll google something later on, but its quite clearly evident with that arch there.. which only derives from the Italian barrel vault and Roman engineering. Also can see the various columns, and standing postioned dead bodies, which is typical of Roman and even Christian era burials in those Catacombs.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 8 Dec - 12:32

Hail Caesar..Roma Victor! Rexor



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 9 Dec - 1:30

This WW2 Nazi badge also has a Cobbian Thulsa Doom architecture quality:

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 9 Dec - 17:49

You are absolutely right! Shocked





Do you know the meaning of the symbols? Or where was it from?




About the catacombs, yeah, it's clearly inspired by the romans as you said, with the arch. These are paleochristian:













But in these roman catacombs the corpses were lying horizontally, meanwhile in the atlantean they are standing vertically. study




The atlantean tomb in the outside could be inspired by the megalithic tombs from the Neolithic. Sometimes they were placed over hills:
















Later came the Bronze-Iron ages tombs, a "mound" of sand or stones and under it was a subterranian chamber or cave. (The famous "kurgans", or the Celtic tombs for Kings, for example):















The interior was actually a great room, where the King was with all his most precious artifacts: cups, war chariots and weapons. These are real objects founded in celtic tombs of ancient kings. Notice the Stone Axe. (The atlantean King was buried also with objects and weapons, including an axe).










study But there again we find the King lying in the floor, in a "sleeping" pose. Not like the atlantean, sitting in his throne. scratch


What abou the Vikings, Rexor who Milius liked so much? Well, they are similar to the Celts. Also built artificial burial monds -(sometimes with stones)- and also used megalithic constructions over the tombs.









Again we find the King and a lot of food, and nice objects like his favourite sword and battleaxe. (Slaves where also sacrified to join the dead king in the tomb).











And again, we find the dead king lying on the floor. So, is there any real historical culture who sat their dead kings on a throne??? scratch scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 9 Dec - 22:03

I think the seated King, is more Abe Lincoln inspired than anything else. The Washington DC monuments are specifically Freemasonry works, which use all the Roman and Egyptian designs..perhaps Milius was drawing on this same ouccultic/ ancient symbolism ideas and/or he's a Mason himself?! Knowing his fondness for American history and WW2, I highly doubt its all coincidental.

These too are clearly under the influece of that Nazi anti-partisan badge:


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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 9 Dec - 22:41

Turd, those tombs pre-date the Celts. Its possible they were later-used by Celtic speaking peoples when they arrived into those lands..but thats all.

The Tarxien Temples of Malta are also quite intriguing as well.

_______________

These vertical mummies are found in Palermo, Sicily:(They also remind me of the mummified Conan, which akiro works on, same hand positionings)






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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Tue 11 Dec - 18:50

I am not all too familiar with bronze Chinese armor & weapons, but the style of the Atlantean helm certainly did look rather Ancient Chinese or such.



The style of the hilt and guard also reminded me of certain Chinese swords.



Here's some more chinese sword styles that I came across:

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 14 Dec - 4:54

Always thought it interesting why Conan is doing this odd pose for no apparent reason:



Hercules and the Hydra (Pollaiuolo)



Conan is also often referred to as the "Lion of Cimmeria", and in the movie, his Kingly symbolism is the lion:



^This a Chinese/Japanese weapon btw.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 16 Dec - 1:41

Here's some more on those Dionynsos/Jesus/Thulsa Doom connections I could gather up:

*We should note that Thulsa Doom used both a Lion and Leopard in the movie. The lion was supposed to be seen during the Tower of the Serpent scene(killed or bypassed by Conan), and leopard of course is seen in the orgy chamber(was to have been killed by Brak/Rexor).



The Leopard and Lion

All wild animals are connected to Dionysos, but none more so than the lion or Leopard The supple, feline elegance of its body, the ferocious and easily provoked temper, the boundless appetite, and uncanny intelligence of the creature make it uniquely and inevitably linked to the Dionysiac sphere - and indeed, the wild cat is frequently depicted in the company of the wild God.





Here's an interesting piece:

Dionysus and Jesus and the Simultaneous Cosmic Destruction-Creation


Quote :
Dionysus, accompanied by his army of bacchic revellers, was accredited as the universal distributor of his own worship and the knowledge of the vine. Like Noah, he was the inventor of wine, and like Soma, he himself was the ambrosial drink poured out, everywhere releasing mankind from suffering. Below, in one of many magnificent mosaics from the House of Masks in Delos, a youthful Dionysus (He was originally depicted as a bearded man, often carrying a wine cup. From the 5th Century B.C onwards he primarily took the form of an effeminate youth.) rides on the back of a leopard (The Solar Beast), holding up a tambourine, deliberately at an angle, identifying it with the new moon of rebirth.



Some more random images of the god and animal symbolism:



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 16 Dec - 15:55

Please keep posting Cromulus, I realliy like this (great) thread. mongol
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 17 Dec - 14:48

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Always thought it interesting why Conan is doing this odd pose for no apparent reason:



It's a posture of Iaido - there are two modern katana fencing techniques, Iaido and Kendo, both of them are a derivation from the primitive Kenjutsu that comes from medieval times -. Kendo has very concrete postures, called Kamae. Actually there are 5 with some variants. Iaido by change, shares those 5 postures but is much more fluid and instinctive, with a high level of improvisation. You start with the sword inside the scabbard, and the movement of taking it out is actually an attack. The example is on thousand of movies about samurais. They allways wait until the last moment with the sword inside the scabbard.

In Iaido you actually use your hands and arms as a support for the katana, reinforcing the concentration and the visual perspective. This way you know where exactly is your weapon pointing at. You become more effective in your attack.

The weapon is actually seen as an extended part of your own body.












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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 17 Dec - 17:58

yes on the surface it appears like some kendo move, but it always looks like Conan is reaching out and is grabbing a neck.

Here's some more:




This Perseus and Andromeda reminds me of when Conan takes the princess down the stairs at the end of the film:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 17 Dec - 19:29

This statue of Menelaus holding up the body of Petroclus, is reminiscent of Conan and Valeria, the part when she dies while he's holding her in his arms, and then he looks towards Thulsa Doom's Mountain of Power:



Another image of Perseus holding up the severed head:
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 24 Dec - 18:53

VISIONS FROM HELL - (for a beauty bourgeois Christmas Day Twisted Evil)


soundtrack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5KJdWpj2Y


LYRICS FROM "THE KITCHEN / THE ORGY":

Alum dare id Hephaestus, id ire fundi (Give him food to Vulcan, Go deep to him)
fati virum, omni brachium (to the oracle responsible of everything)
pulchris profundis, infernarum servi fati (to the beautiful deep hell of the servant of fate)
Impoteo Infernarum (Stinking Hell)
’ooo’ pulchris infernarum profundis (to the beautiful deep hell)
Impoteo, impoteo fati (Stinking, Stinking fate)

Impoteo Infernarum (Stinking hell)
alum dare, orire, id Hephaestus, id ire, (Give food, Born, Go to him, to Vulcan)
pro profundis fati, (trought the deep fate)
pro pulchris infernarum profundis (trought the beautiful deep hell)
pro pulchris omni fati brachium (throught the beautiful responsible of all fate)
pulchris profundis infernarum servi fati (beautifull deep hell of servants of fate)
profundis, profundis fati (to the deep deep fate)
alum dare, orire id Hephaestus, id ire (Give food, Born, Go to him, to Vulcan)
pro profundis fati. (trought the deep fate)




A god of fire and metalworking. Hephaestus (Vulcan in Rome) was known to the Romans as the fire-god, Vulcan, as well as Mulciber (Gentle Touch).

Some say that Hephaestus was son of Zeus and Hera, but a more popular myth says that he was the son of Hera alone. When Zeus gave birth to Athena without a mother, Hera was jealous and decided to give birth to a child without a father.

As the metal-smith of the gods, he made many pieces of armour and weapons for the gods as well as building their beautiful palaces in Olympus. He also made armour for mortal heroes as Achilles.

Hephaestus was quite ugly; he was crippled and misshapen at birth (though some believe it was a result of his fall): in the vase-paintings, his feet are sometimes back-to-front. In art, Hephaestus was shown lame and bent over his anvil. He walked with the aid of a stick. Another Homeric version of Hephaestus's myth has that Hera, mortified to have brought forth such grotesque offspring, promptly threw him from Mount Olympus. He fell many days and nights and landed in the ocean. (Hephaestus’s physical appearance indicates arsenicosis, low levels of arsenic poisoning, resulting in lameness and skin cancers. Arsenic was added to bronze to harden it and most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic workplace poisoning.)






The underworld is a place associated with Hell, demonized after the arrival of christianism and described as a place of eternal suffering and pain. But there was also a place for carnal pleasures, as we can see in the orgy of the movie. Cannibalism, zoophilia and all kind of grotesque aberrations could be enjoyed by the usual burgueous without any fear of being punished by laws or any other fantasy of morality. Mr. Green


The Trolls were usually associated with the Underworld, as they lived in caverns and feared the light of the sun. (Have you ever watched a movie called "The Descent"). Wink






Trolls, associated in the Milius movie with Neaderthals, share a similar bone structure with these ancient human beings.


Troll head.




Fossilized neanderthal skull.




Trolls are described as hairy humanoids, with ugly and sisgusting manners and sadisctic desires.









Linking the tale of Valeria with the Trolls myth of Subotai, the Trolls feared the light of the sun because they became into stone when touched by it.





Trolls with a cauldron - with human flesh, presumably.






Now we find a picture of the movie that is closely related with tons of canibalism imagery from previous centuries.

















These anthopophagous imagery was associated to savage cultures, as the civilized european dreamed them.
















Now we find the cauldron. A typical image associated with the underworld sinze celtic times -maybe even older-.

















And as a thought, I think there could be a link between the charismatic and retard cannibal Leatherface and the Leatherfaced cannibals from the Orgy Chamber of Doom. scratch Maybe it's me, or they both like to hide his ugly ass-like face behind masks made with human skin?








This is Goya, a spanish painter from the XVIII-XIX century. The artwork is called "Saturn devouring his son".





:doom: how many of you are still afraid of embracing Emptiness?
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 24 Dec - 20:52

Yes, Ape-men have been used extensively by recent fantasy writers, like HG Wells or Burroughs. Examples are Mahars(they are Evil Reptoid super race) who control and use the Sagoths to do their dirty work, whom are a race of gorilla-men who speak the same language as Tarzan's apes. They are seen in "AT THE EARTH'S CORE". HG Wells used the Morlocks, as seen in "THE TIME MACHINE".

For reasons unknown, Milius seemed to have dropped the Neanderthal idea, and just inserted regular men with leather mask's that dont look like human faces, but rather like S&M leather masks(which fit the scene for a modern audience,lol). The supposed Neanderthal's in the movie just look like wild inbred savages that lived in the cave. In the 13th Warrior, instead of Neanderthals, they too look like inbred American Indians.shifty

The mythic shared associations with Conan and Thulsa Doom is always recurrent throughout the movie.

Vulcan is said to have resided in in Mt. Etna, but a pre-Roman or even Greek version, was already present. He was called Adranus. Some writer's linked this diety to Adramelech a sun god of Sumaria, or even Baal. This diety was put into Christian Demonology, where supposedly , "The enemy of God, greater in ambition, guile and mischief than Satan. A fiend more curst — a deeper hypocrite."

But the reality is, it goes back to Typhon:



After the war with the Titan's, Typhon(a monstrous version of Hephaestus) was cast under Mount Etna. He basically just a Chthonic configuration of volcanic forces.

*Surely none of this is coincidence, and Cobb didnt pull these things out've his own mind, nor did Howard. Cobb never really explained how or where he got these images, I think he left a remark that he invented them, and his cult of Set symbol was close to one of Howard's descriptions(lol). But to Cobb's credit, he did state that he borrowed and mixed a lotve of Greek, Roman, Persian, Aztec & Egyptian stuff. However it wasnt sloppy it was very well deliberately articulated, so obviously a lotve thought and meaning went into this movie than is mentioned by either Cobb or Milius.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 24 Dec - 21:38

Cobb also used the Triangle symbolism here:



Its another important symbol from the Ancient world and in the Occult.

Quote :
The triangle is one of the most easily recognized religious symbols in the West, most commonly associated with the Christian trinity or Freemasonry. The triangle is the simplest geometric shape, and also the first purely theological symbol. To the ancient pythagoreans, the triangle was, as the first complete polygon, the womb of number and the essence of stability.

Quote :
The upward moving triangle is sometimes called the blade (the chalice and blade figure ceremonially in many ritual magic operations). It is a symbol of aspiration or rising up, male force, and fire. It is purely phallic in origin. The triangle represents aspiration, rising forcem and the male principal.

Quote :
The downward pointing triangle is sometimes referred to as the chalice. It is the symbol of water (as it flows downward), the grace of heaven, and the womb. it is one of the most ancient symbols of female divinity, as a representation of the genitalia of the goddess.

Crescent symbol was used also by Thulsa Doom as well. It was a symbol made famous by the Roman calvary legions

Quote :
The Crescent -represents the powers of the moon- reflective and receptive. (An example of this symbol taken to its highest symbolic meaning would be the Holy Grail) A reversed crescent often represents emptiness and illusion.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa062003a.htm

*Interestingly enough, I remember Cobb mentioning in a magazine how he originally wanted two interconnecting triangles for Conan and/or the Cimmerians, but he said his design looked too close to Ming's symbol from the "FLASH GORDON" movie.



____________________

Roman Calvary, also often wore face mask's and carried the Dragon standard:




Here is the real Lucius Artorius Castus wearing the unique Dragon/Serpent helmet. This carving was found in his ancestral home in Campania, Italy. (which incidentally is were the real historiical Aquilonia is located)


He is famous for leading a mixed Roman and Sarmatian Auxiliary Legion in Amorica(Britain), where he wiped out a huge uprising of Picts near Hadrian's Wall. He's also one part of the inspiration for the legendary King Arthur figure.
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