Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

source : http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com

Late Roman Shield patterns:













http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NotitiaPatterns.html

Here's a cool image of Hercules battling the serpentine Hydra


Bosio's Hercules and the Lernaean Hydra (1824)

and

Cellini's Perseus

Nice stuff, Cromulus, thanks !

Your welcome. Wanted to add a few more, but forgot some things.

Minoan Snake Priestess:

The Serpent Column:

The Plataean Tripod, also known as the Delphi Tripod or the Serpent Column, is an ancient Greek sacrificial tripod, originally located in Delphi and later relocated to Constantinople (modern Istanbul).

After the Battle of Plataea, the last battle of the Greco-Persian Wars, Greeks built a bronze column of three intertwined snakes (Greek: Τρικάρηνος Όφις, meaning three-headed snake), whose bodies formed the column, to commemorate the 31 Greek city-states that participated in the battle. According to Herodotus, the bronze column was built using the bronze from the melded-down Persian weapons. A golden tripod was also built using the Persian weapons, and the whole monument was dedicated to the god Apollo and was placed next to the altar of Apollo at Delphi. It was placed on top of a stone base, an inverted Byzantine capital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Column

Medea's Serpent Chariot




The Chthonic Typhon, whom is the assoiated to the Eygptian god Set. The Greco-Roman incarnation is the version which Howard borrowed from, both in look and story/character wise:

I found yet another Ancient Corinthian style helmet bearing the symbol.



I would love to know exactly what books and resources Cobb was using, because these styles and symbolism wasnt his or Howards, as claimed.

Move over Rodin, here's Michelangelo...someone say KING CONAN London publicity shots or what?!


Julio de Medici in Michelangelo's Medici tomb:

Quote :

The Ouroboros, also spelled Ourorboros, Oroborus, Uroboros or Uroborus (IPA: [ˌjʊərəʊˈbɒrəs]), is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon swallowing its own tail and forming a circle. It has been used to represent many things over the ages, but it most generally symbolizes ideas of cyclicality, unity, or infinity. The ouroboros has been important in religious and mythological symbolism, but has also been frequently used in alchemical illustrations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Ancient Symbols in Conan:
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/all_seeing_eye/conan/

Yes the "All-Seeing Eye". In the movie it was normally that turquoise blue, must assume its to represent Doom's own blue eyes. Brings to mind that line, "For a thousand years I have watched you".

Quote :

The Eye of Providence or the all-seeing eye is a symbol showing an eye surrounded by rays of light or a glory, and usually enclosed by a triangle. It is sometimes interpreted as representing the eye of God keeping watch on humankind (see Divine Providence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

Eye of Ra




The All-Seeing Eye or Eye of Providence is quite old indeed. Though I think in the movie it also represents the "Evil Eye", so it has a duel meaning and significance .I know in Italy its called Malocchia, and it goes far back to Ancient Rome and Greece. Other cultures have their version of it as well.

http://www.luckymojo.com/evileye.html

This pretty lady is Coatlicue.








As you can see, her "face" is builded with the head of two snakes confronting each other. Can't you see it? Ok, show it to the guys, Ahnuld:








Coatlicue is the Mother Goddess in aztec world. Even though she is pretty close to Death -and very probably gory sacrificies were made on her honor- she is not a "devil" or a malevolent entity.





She personifies the hunger and irrational passion of the vagina, and though she eats human flesh, she also gives life. She encarnates the Earth and the forces of nature. She is the Ying and Yang all together. (That's why she is simetrical).





There is another picture of a snake sacred entity formed with the head of two vipers confronting itselves. It's even older than the aztec Coatlicue, as this one comes from the Olmecs, one of the first precolumbian cultures from Central America (the Olmec culture is 3.000 years old while the Aztec is only about 1.000 years old).





(I would like to add that I hate the way precolumbian cultures have allways been pictured, as disgusting brutes which love to sacrifice persons -(see "Apocalypto" for example. Cool movie, yeah? Sure, but how much have you learned from the Mayans. Just bullshit). That is as silly as believen every japanese knows karate. And it has a name. Anyway the human sacrificies of course existed, as the gladiators and slavery in Rome did. But it doesn't mean they are evil. It's a different world with different rules).





Let's jump into another place where the cult of Thulsa Doom also arrived to poison the souls and the heart of the poor hippies who followed him to the emptiness.



This horned dude is Cernunnos, celtic god of fertility. Maybe you can't see it but he has a very big motherfucking... yes. He was transformed after the arrival of catholicism in a devil, and the pooe witches who still wanted to adore hi... yes, where burned like bacon. Church doesn't like that somebody finds that part of men... yes, as holy. (But, hey, what's more sacred than... yes).




Cernunnos is closely related to snakes. You can see he holds one in his left hand. The important thing is what he holds in the right. It's a TORQUE, a celtic metallic collar, for males.








What's up with it? It is a stylized version of a snake, as you can see in this another picture of the Horned God (with big... yes).





Sometimes the torque is represented as a snake with two heads, curved until they practically confront each other. See these images of Slaine, the celtic warrior -(also known as "The Horned God", a human avatar of Cernunnos).

Cobb gave Thulsa Doom Celtic stylized interconnecting knots and designs at times, some times using the snakes orm normal variation.. some of them can be seen on certain clothing--like some of Doom's robes and ornaments.

Its used on this board too as banner:



Another version was used on a un-used CONAN shield:

_______

Hey Turd check out the Namer(Scorpion King) palette:

Roman snake bracelet from the 4th century BC, they had alot've variations of these.



The Orgy chamber they use alot've historical(Biblical movie) generic props.

CONAN's dagger looks extremely close to the SS Honor Dagger. The Father's sword is said have gotten the writing off of historical German Executioners ax or something, however this SS dagger also has writing on it too.








We know Milius is a big WW2 fanatic.

That interconnecting design on the buckle is very close to the one used on a un-used CONAN shield pattern seen in one of the preproduction galleries, either on this forum or the CE DVD.

It seemed to have been retained on this cut out costume with the Princess Yasmina:

Also on the note of Freemasonry Symbolism in CONAN. The part when the Father holds up the Sword against the Cimmerian sky, it looked clearly to me like a Obelisk. When I was younger, I always thought it looked like the Washington Monument:




The Obelisk of Tuthmosis III , now placed in former Constantinople(modern Istanbul) by the Roman Emperor Theodosius the Great:

Well, i'm pretty sure that the obelisk and the image of the father holding the sword up to the sky has a close related meaning. In pagan terms, of course.

The obelisk is obvioulsy a phalic symbol, emerging from the Earth and rising up to the sky, where it desires to put its energy -(semen). The sky could also put its energy in the obelisk in the form of lighting.

The father holding his sword up to the sky -(FATHER with his tool, obvioulsy another phalic symbol)- is the same: he wants to bless his sword. The sky can also bendice it with lightings.

They both images are the comunion between the Earth and the Sky, being the "obelisk" or the "father with a sword" the connection between them both, and the receiver and keeper of both powers.

Somehow it also is related to the Riddle of Steel -mixing of iron an carbon producing a new material- that is incarnated in the man who holds it, himself.

It also is related to the idea of the Superhuman of Nietzsche, a mix of heaven and hell, angel and demon, ying and yang, child and man.


So it's normal when you saw a relation there, man.

Said that, it makes me think.

How Thulsa Doom's symbology is so closely related to femenine images -(the Coatlicue, the oureboros)- (SET could probably be a female, as Coatlicue is, and almost every reptile or serpent entity in real historical PAGAN mythology). *

Meanwhile Conan's imagery is more related to masculine -(swords, phalic symbols)-.

It's clear that CTB is a movie for guys. In this topic, the movie is "male vs female".

Of course, Conan is not against females. He really loved Valeria. But he is against "false female": Thulsa Doom, who is a male but uses the power of female goddess. Another "false female" enemy could be incarned in the homosexual priest that Conan kills.

I'm not saying that Doom is gay. We don't know his sexuality but as far as we know, he is asexual. BUT he USES the femenine power of the earth and the serpent god Set -(that is the Earth itself). He claims to be a "Father" but he uses the power of the Mother goddess. He is essentially a LIAR, but a very good one. One that can make you think what the Truth is. But Conan, heh, he could not be fooled. He knew what a "real father" is, when he saw the symbol of his own one, the broken sword.

Somehow, the CTB movie is a definition of sexuality.

Because of course gay men are not "false" in any way. But this movie is not about political correct stuff, but a internal trip of a man who defines how his sexuality is. It's probably the reason why CTB was so powerful for us when we as teenagers are defining our heterosexual orientation.

(I guess you are heteros too, i'm just guessing)


See, Slaine is a more evolved kind of "barbarian", and it's no so weird when he wears the oureboros collar -the torque- which is a femenine power symbol. If you have read the comics, he is the "Horned God" who serves the Mother Goddess. The Horned God is a mixture of masculine and femenine, ying and yang, that is as I said, a Nietzschean Superhuman.

It's interesting because Slaine is a very masculine character, but as thereal historical celtic warriors were, his main god is a Goddess. Apparently, the ancient male celts used to marriage with women, as a contract. They had children with them, practice sex, and grow a farm. But they could have sex with other men if they desired it. Homosexuality, as in ancient Rome, was not a taboo. Only a matter of choice.

If we forget for a moment about modern prejudges or personal subjetive inclinations, we must remember that same way slavery and gladiator fights were accepted as "normal" and didn't became them into "evil persons", homosexual choices didn't turn them into "fags". Things were more pure in these ancient days.

In CTB movie, of course, the philosophy has modern parametres. Apparently, homosexuality is not normal. (Only the bad guys are). Of course we don't know if Subotai and Conan had something else in these nights they run from city to city. But we can guess they did not.

The important thing is not about who or what likes one to fuck with. The important thing is the definition of the role of the characters in sexuality. Conan decides to be like his father. A man who have sex with a woman and have children. Not like Thulsa Doom, who don't have natural children -or like his priests -who are homosexual-.

Probably the more classic male chauvinist philosophy of Milius' CTB is related to the idea of Conan still being young. And sure is also related to REH own vision of life, very male chauvinist, as he didn't really knew what a woman is. Sadly valeria died too soon... Conan would have learned sooo much from that amazing woman. Same thing with REH who could also have learned a lot from Novalyne Price Ellys. If Valeria would have lived, Conan would have had the same masculine energy and strenght, but combined with the sensitivines of his mate. Like Kull, for example, who combined REH masculine chauvinism and the sensitivines of a poet or an artist, but still in a very rough way. I am sure that if Milius would have developed the character Conan would have become something closer to Slaine, or to what Kull could have been if REH would have continued writting. A more complex and interesting motherfucker.

The Conan of Milius had a very interesting internal side. That's why I still like the character. Hope he finded Valeria when he died, in Crom's table.

For Valeria.








* I'm talking about the Milius' version, in Marvel comics Set is a male. Because the female "snake entitie" became male after the arrival of christianism. Then, the Serpent God was a incarnation of the Devil, who is male... That's why the marvel comics pictures Set as a male, because they don't know shit about pagan stuff. Shit, they even created a "heaven" and "hell" in the Hyborian world... Stupid shit. But you know, Marvel comics is not exactly too deep or faithful to reality in any way. Not interesting. For me, at least. I prefer the movie.

I don't think your too far off, Turd. Doom's cult also reminded me of the Cult of Dionysus/Bacchus ..which also features drink,drugs, music, dance and sex.

Theres plenty of music in the movie and even in-movie music with the chanting and singing, the Snake Tower Temple, Kitchen and Cauldron and then the possibly the Orgy, there mightve been some off-camera minstrels because you see some white robed priests running away on a upper level in the background in certain scenes when all hell breaks loose...also at during the orgy, Yasmina dances..

Some priestess of Dionysus were known for murdering people under the influence of mind altering substances..think as gruesome as tearing apart human bodies in murderous frenzies and orgies ect.

CONAN in this movie also has strong similarities to Hercules, who when as a infant crushed the two serpents sent by Hera to slay him . Hercules was also responsible for clearing the planet from monsters and even helped topple the Giants during their war with the gods. Both were also greedy men turned heroic saviors.

* In the script, Milius describes Conan's father as being like the metal forging god Vulcan himself.

PS

Doom's cult also had elements of the Scorpio in astrology. Which is the sign of Life, Death and Rebirth(aka Infinity). Also associated with sex and war, the gods Mars and Pluto. Also iron and Steel..this can explain Doom's mysterious attraction to Steel. Wolves are also associated with the Scorpion. Its the most powerful of the zodiac and very important in the occult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_%28astrology%29

Moreover, Milius original description for Thulsa Doom was dark, mysterious, masculine and yet sensual male(Sean Connery) that is very commanding whose mere presence conjures up sexuality. Doom's power of both men and women , his dominance of Conan's mother, as he tamed her wild side and nearly did in Conan the same way.

In astrology the number 8 is associated with the Scorpio, its the sign of infinity(again the Ouroboros).

*The Scorpion god was featured in the King Kull series..and was as old as powerful as Set the Serpent.

Hm, it's very interesting the topic of Dionissus, as it was a very important topic for Nietzsche. But you must remember, first of all, that the cult of Bacchus was demonized by catholicism and turned into a Satanist thing.

If Milius really wanted to follow Nietzsche, he would not have compared the cult of Set with a real Dionissus cult -Nietzsche said that Dionissus, even being "ugly", was far more powerful and interesting than his opposite, Apolo-. So, the real Dionissiac characters would be the heroes, as we can see them drunken like shit in the tavern, and living life as it comes.

But, it's true that as you say, "the orgy" is clearly a Dionissiac party. But Thulsa Doom is not enjoying it. He is in his zen posture, far beyond the pleasures of flesh. He probably gives that dionissiac parties to their followers to keep them happy. But I don't think that is his cup of tea.

Just see the eyes of the heroes, when they discover the orgy. "This is paradise", Subotai sais. They are clearly dionissiac in spirit. The three heroes also like sex, taking drugs and drinking wine.

Maybe you can describe the "Cult of Set" as a false Dionissiac cult, a disguise. Doom could look like a sensual man, but he is not. He has cold blood, and doesn't seem to feel desire for sex of any kind.

The physical apparence of the heroes, on the other hand, is more Apolinean than Dionissian. Specially, of course, Schwarzenegger who has the body of a greek statue.

But who would have like a hero with a big belly like Bacchus? The important thing is that Conan is dionissiac because he is driven by passion -(revenge and love). Meanwhile, Doom is Apolinean because he is driven by high and final ambitions -(becoming a god, controlling the world).

yes he a deliberate corruption ..Doom is ultimately the snake in the garden of Eden..he is a charlatan and Evil. * In the orgy chamber you see a garden with tree mosaic on the wall behind Doom's chair.


BTW turd, your right..Milius deliberately mixed up these different mythological/religious attributes, giving them to both Conan and Doom. Milius wanted Doom to be ambiguous, not a cardboard villain. Take for instance the lines Milius gave to Doom at the end, "For whom now is your father if it is not me. When I am gone you would never have been" ect



Here's the original writing 3rd Draft lines plus Conan's Voice Over:

Quote :

THULSA DOOM
You would kill your father?

Quote :

CONAN(v.o.)
He was right- the answer was not the blade but in the man.

Quote :

CONAN(v.o.)
My father was the light of day-Thulsa Doom was my night.

Flaming Turd wrote:

Hm, it's very interesting the topic of Dionissus, as it was a very important topic for Nietzsche. But you must remember, first of all, that the cult of Bacchus was demonized by catholicism and turned into a Satanist thing.

True, though I know there was rogue cults in those days and often many were corrupt forms. Cannibalism and murder was in no way excepted and human sacrifice was often frowned upon and often angered the Olympian gods.

I think it was may of been an early pre-Olympians, those Chthonic version some cults became intermingled with later replacement deities or survived under guise. Going back to Iron and Typhon(Set)--Vulcan was the civilized(Olympian) version of Typhon. And Doom is trying to bring back a hell on earth and domination of his religion. So Doom is trying to topple the new gods and bring back the old. Conan's father represents the Olympians and even Prometheus. That story with the KULL movie was similar to Stone's CONAN in this respect as well, with the evil age old Stygian Sorcerer wanting to bring back the Demonic god and new Empire of Acheron(which is a River in Hades like the river styx).

Like Typhon, Thulsa Doom lives in a Mountain/Volcano. Typhon/Vulcan lived in Mount Etna(Sicily).

Apollo has also been associated with Christ and early Christianity-- which is really one big mix of religions anyhow.

Conan dying and being brought back by god or gods, is rather like the Iliad--the gods used their human champions and often revived them or saved them--intervening. Milius also used the Christ like crucifixion and ressurection.