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 Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN

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Cromulus The Destroyer
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 17 Feb - 3:58

Found this one a few days ago, English comic writer is some kinda neo-Pagan, supposedly worships Glykon:

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 17 Feb - 4:06

Here's an interesting coin of Pope Gregory, showing a Dragon variant of Ouroboros surrounding a ram's head...rather zodiacal as Pope Gregory is where we get our modern calendar from(he tweaked Julius Caesar's calendar) as well as the Gregorian chanting of the Church music.


Here's another pic of a Roman bronze bracelet:



Here's some 3rd Reich things:



Arno Breker's Germanic man Statue obvious imitation of Hercules statues:



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 17 Feb - 13:36

Cromulus The Destroyer wrote:
Found this one a few days ago, English comic writer is some kinda neo-Pagan, supposedly worships Glykon:

That dude is Alan Moore, creator of "V for vendetta" and "Watchmen", among others -like "League of extraordinary gentlemen, which movie sucks but comic is really allright-.


The nazi art is really interesting, I think would be the main influence of the movie sthethic as Milius is a WWII and nazi memorabilia collector so no doubt he watched all that stuff in some way or another. The REASON killing the SNAKE is a constant symbol.

I still think the posture in the movie is a japanese Iaido posture for a guard, but I can't deny the conection here:



The last image, the Übermensch holding up his sword, is pretty close to this - just compare the left arm -:





Very interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 17 Feb - 16:31

His artwork isnt bad, however its very derivative imitation of Ancient and Renaissance artwork, as nazi Germany was copying the Roman Empire and Fascist Italy. Some of his pieces are very pulpy, like this one below:

The Dying Hero



A little battle of the moundish, no?
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 17 Feb - 23:13

A very interesting page dedicated to the Symbolism of the Wheel:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit9/unit9.html


As a true historical "Wheel of Pain" I founded this:


To us, "the wheel" may seem like an ordinary wooden device that moves a carriage. To a medieval person, this wheel was a feared device that produced unbelievable, staggering torture.
The wheel was a favored instrument of terror in Germany during the Middle Ages. According to a German chronicler, victims of "breaking with a wheel" became

<BLOCKQUOTE>...a sort of huge screaming puppet writhing in rivulets of blood, a puppet with four tentacles, like a sea monster, of raw, slimy and shapeless flesh mixed up with splinters of smashed bones.</BLOCKQUOTE>
But that wasn't the end of it. Limbs were woven around the spokes and the wheel was hoisted up so birds could peck away. Death was usually slow in coming.
St. Catherine of Alexandria (to whom Joan of Arc prayed) died this way. So did lots of other folks. But breaking a person with the wheel was just one barbaric method of extracting confessions. Another device was the "Judas Cradle."





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I founded something really interesting that could bring more light into John Milius' and the rest of the unconcious of the artists involved in CTB.

I'm not saying that these guys are (or were) neonazis. I hope nobody blame for that thing.

One thing that is real is that the education of some of the main makers of the movie was heavily influenced by fascism. Take the case of John Milius, and as later I will talk about, also Arnold Schwarzenegger.

As I said before in previous posts, this kind of works are not oriented to point the finger in nobody or accuse anybody. These are facts and the relation with the nazi symbolism and art can't be more evident.

And in any case, as Cromulus said once, if you can blame CTB being a fascist propaganda movie, then you should do the same with Star Wars. The use of ANY kind of symbols in ART is free and nobody can censure that. If there is a "hidden message" in the movies we watch then is the personal work of each one to be mature enough to identify what they are eating. This work is only purely study.

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Apparently, the image of Moloch has been used as a symbol of antisemitic propaganda. Take this example written by some clever dude Rolling Eyes :

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:fRczk_oEsAYJ:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2520Religions/Judaism/satanic.htm+moloch+jews&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2


I strongly think that there is some connection here with the identification of the cult of Doom as a Semitic evil cult -supposed enemy of christianism- and also extended with the EEUU "WAR ON DRUGS" propaganda, as somehow they are both connected as you can watch below. Don't forget the Cult's follwers are described as hippy "drug users" who go into orgies, murder and cannibalism. These are the ideas that the right government allways used as propaganda against LSD or MARIHUANA consumers.







As I said once, I think, it's silly to reduce hippism to a "Cult of Death", making "hippy" equal to a nihilistic yonkie who only desires to die. But it's the culture of the "War on Drugs", in my humble opinion just another way of manipulation for the masses. "Don't take drugs, children".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg_IgEo_vIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDmVlNZJK2A


Also I find interesting the contradictions that are in the Milius' movie symbolism. As Conan and Subotai, the main heroes who Milius would feel related to, consume drugs and take a joyful trip with black lotus like a couple of teenagers. Makes me imagine about John Milius young days in the cinema school with his friendmates Spielberg and Lucas. I'm sure they were closer to the hippy movement and style of life than they would admit. Also, Oliver Stone was heavily into the hippy movement and culture, including drug consume and Jim Morrison's style of life. Plus Schwarzenegger widely admited being a joint smoker when young.

The fact is Milius is using fascist symbolism to define the "bad guys" but in the end the Evil is not evil because they do what they do...

¿They are murderers? Good guys are also.

¿They use drugs? Good guys do also.

¿They enjoy orgies? Good guys would, also.


Now Milius turns the bad guys into liars and cowards, meanwhile the heroes are honest and brave -meanwhile Doom uses an army to fight against a town, the heroes go to the fight they 3 alone, trusting only in themselves-.


So, I think there is an use of anti-semitic and fascist symbolism in the film more for sthethical reasons than to make it a true fascist propaganda movie. It's a complex and mixed product, as maybe we can also call the same John Milus, the Zen-Fascist Rolling Eyes .




"The classical sources attribute frequent holocausts of children to the Carthaginians in order to emphasize the harsh and cruel nature of these people and their Phoenician forefathers. 'The Phoenicians, and more especially the Carthaginians, when they want some important project to succeed, promise to sacrifice a child to Cronos if their wish is fulfilled'. Clitarch and Diodorus also tell us that the sacrifice took place in front of a bronze statue of the god, with arms outstretched over a blazing hearth; the child slid down over the arms and fell. It seems that the victims were covered with a grinning mask and that is why, according to Clitarch, they died laughing and hence the term 'sardonic' (Sardinian) for a sarcastic smile.
More on the purported Phoenician practice of Moloch. Did it really happen or was it Graeco-Roman propaganda, a kind of predecessor of the antisemitic blood libel? "






"Sacrificing to Moloch". Habib Faris, Sirakh al-Bari,Cairo, 1891.





". . . THE DOPE begins its DEADLY WORK of arousing SEXUAL PASSIONS . . . with no restraint as to COLOR or RACE!"
Robert James Devine, Assassin of Youth: Marihuana 1943
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 18 Feb - 0:22

1920s era Nazi propaganda poster proclaiming -Tod der Lüge- ("Death of the Lie").

Is interesting how the Serpent is related to the LIE, as Thulsa Doom is essentially a Liar. Also is a liar the christian DEVIL, so associated with the snakes.





A more detailed pic of the sculpture by Breker. (Called "BATTLE AGAINST SERPENTS", 1940).




Also by Arno Breker, a sculpture of "ST GEORGE" slaying the Dragon -that is, the "LIARS", the enemies of the führer-.




The use of the SERPENT or the Dragon as a symbol of the evil is not only related to nazi images. Here we find the oppossite, as the SERPENT is identified with the nazis.


"St George is the mascot of Moscow, and he turns up all over the place here. This pic is from the World War 2 memorial, and the dragon in this case is covered in Nazi symbolism".










We have a very old VIKING myth of SIGFRIED (or SIGURD), who killed the serpent FAFNIR.

























He needed a special weapon to kill the serpent, so a special sword was made for him.











Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent - Brooch, 7th century AD





It's not hard to see CONAN as a modern version of SIGFRID:








Finally, I founded this very good page about the origins of the CULT OF THE SERPENT:

http://www.daimonas.com/pages/snake-worship.html

In there you can find this:




In this Mycenaean gem the goddess who controls the moon, which is represented by the double-axe, controls the serpents of the sky.
It dates to c.1500BC.

The pole of the double-axe represents the "pole" from earth to the polar axis: the "trunk" of the world tree. The forms of the twin double-headed snake, and the central double-axe take the form of the later Greek trident, symbol of Zeus' thunder-weapon.

Note: The 2 crescent moons form outlines which form the complete circle of the full-moon, symbolising the Indo-European division of the phases of the moon into 3: 3x3x3. It should be noted that the "Semitic" tradition divided the phases of the moon into 4x7.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another image of SIGFRIED:





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 18 Feb - 1:14

Use of the Eagle in Western European Heraldry

Charles the Great, (Charlemagne in French or Karl Der Große in German, or Carolus Magnus in Latin), was a Frankish ruler and the first Holy Roman Emperor from AD 800 - 814, in days when no 'France' or 'Germany' existed. He used the seal of the Eagle.

According to von Volborth the first instance of the use of an eagle as an heraldic charge is the Great Seal of the Margrave Leopold of Austria in 1136. On the seal his figure carries a shield charged with an eagle. Also from about this time is a coin, minted in Maastricht (the Netherlands), dating from between 1172 and 1190 after contacts with the East via the crusades. It shows a single-headed eagle.



Coin from between 1172 and 1192, with the oldest known use of the eagle.

From the reign of Frederick Barbarossa in 1155 the eagle became a symbol of the Holy Roman Empire in its one-headed state. The eagle was clearly derived from the Roman eagle and continues to be important in the heraldry of those areas once within the Holy Roman Empire. Within Germany the placement of one’s arms in front of an eagle was indicative of princely rank under the Holy Roman Empire.


An unnoficial Atlantean weapon featuring Eagles.

<tr vAlign=top><td align=middle width=90 height=64>QTY:




More eagle symbol in the movie -(from the Wheel of Pain)




Price:

document.write(getProductPrice("$","\,",2,".",false, true, 2396,"inc No Tax within Australia","inc No Tax within Australia","International Orders",1,true));
$84.50

document.write(getPriceInfo(2396,"inc No Tax within Australia","inc No Tax within Australia","International Orders",1,true));







More nazi eagles:

Translation: "IN THE END AWAITS THE VICTORY".




















Italian fascist art:





King OSRIC:









Karl der Grosse, (Charles the Great) the First German Kaiser.

Besides the physical resemblance with Von Sydow, his symbol was the eagle. I think we have a pretty clear inspiration here for the character.



























King Osric is described as being an excellent rider, in his youth.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

More fascist symbolism relations:




Here we offer a wonderful fantasy Coin: "The coin that never was". Minted in Italy after World War II for those who still longed for the "old days".

The reverse shows the Fascist symbol - bundle of rods surrounding an AXE from which sprouts a LION's head. The leonine image refers to one of Mussolini's most famous sayings:

E' Meglio Vivere un Giorno da Leone che Cent'Anni da Pecora

(It is Better to Live One Day as a Lion than a Hundred Years as Sheep)





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 18 Feb - 2:36

This relief from the Temple of Agrippa :



Vulcan and the Cyclops(riddle of steel with titans and giants) :



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 23 Feb - 1:16

Quote :
I can say that there's a real Zamora, its located in Spain and Zingaro in Italian means, Gypsy.


In spanish, gypsi is said "gitano", that comes from "egiptano" because in the XV century it was believed that gypsis came from Egipt. Today, some gypsis still believe they are descendants from the pharaons. Rolling Eyes The first tribes of gypsis that came from East Europe to Spain fantasized about their origins, giving to themselves a fantastic and mythic procedence as a protection against a population where they were a minority.

They are also called ROM or ROMANIES.





The most probable historical origin of the gypsis is the India, in the Punjab region. They abandoned they India around 1000 AC.

They traveled through Afganistan, Iran, Armenia and Turquia.






ZINGARIANS:

The word comes from the Greek Ατσίγγανος (it means UNTOUCHABLE). In spanish is also spelled CÍNGARO or ZÍNGARO as in italian. It is allways a relative to the gypsi culture.


The most common apreciation of Spain out of the country is probably the "flamenco", that is the gypsi music, that developed in the south of Spain -Andalucía-. It's the main reason everybody associates Spain with gypsis. But that music started in the 19th century so it's very umprobable that the habitants of the hyborian Zíngara could play guitars and sing like Camarón de La Isla after their fights with iron weapons...

Also, gypsis didn't arrive to Spain till the XV century so again I wonder what was 2GunBob thinking when he wrote that ideas. scratch ... Iron Age gypsis??? ... Cool. Whatever.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


The real ZAMORA is a province of SPAIN and the capital is a city, also called ZAMORA.

The province is very characteristic for its Medieval Romanic art.



The origin of the city could probably celtic, more concrete CELTIBERIAN -(the first known historical habitants of the peninsule, as I exposed in some old pages of this post)-.

The tribe had the name of VACCEOS. It was the 3th century.





The Vacceos made stone idols of BULLS. Apparently that animal was their main symbol.





The bull still today is a strong symbol of male strenght and fecundity. This is the infamous "Bull of Osborne", propaganda of a spanish liquor. In the highways, publicity was prohibited some years ago in the country, but these bull silouettes were so assimilated in the collective unconciousness that were the only legal publicity that still perdured.



There isn't really any reference to the BULL CULT in the movie, but these:


Apparently the Wolf-Witch shared this Iron-Age cult of the BULL, as we can see in this fetiche she had in her warm loving hut. Of course she worshipped male strenght... to eat it. Damn bitch! Rolling Eyes






Also in this unused concept art we discover the cimmerians also used the bulls. It doesn't mean they worshipped them, but there is a connection between cimmerians and celts, also celtiberian.




And of course, these vanir bulls are really true SPANISH BULLS. (Castrated, for the use as beasts of burden. So they are called "BUEYES").



These are non castrated spanish bulls -no wonder why they worshipped them-:







This scene in the tavern of Zamora -(Milius' movie)- shows that the bull and cow meat is common used.




The VACCEOS of ZAMORA also whorsipped the PIG. The celts worshipped the Wild Boar, whom the pig is the direct descendant.





The spanish pigs (CERDO IBÉRICO) are descendants from an african wild boar, the "Sus Mediterraneus".

In the movie there are pigs in the tavern, (again obviously spanish porks):



The porks in the tavern of Zamora -(milius' movie)- are for sure used for meat, and probably to make Jamón. This is the "JAMÓN IBERICO", food that has its roots in the Iron Age celtic tribes of Spain.







Also, the ROMANS invaded the celtic zone of ZAMORA and gave to it the name of "Occelum Durii" (Eyes of the Duero River).

Roman bridged over the DUERO river.



The romans took ZAMORA at the same time Viriato was fighting against the conquerors in another place of Spain, not too far from Zamora itself. (Viriato was a celtic rebel leader, some kind of spanish Bran Mak Morn).

That statue of Viriato is placed in ZAMORA.




Later in the 6th century, the german barbarians arrived and kicked the roman asses, so in visigoth times the city took the name of "SEMURE". After that the arabs gave it the names of "AZEMUR" or "SEMURAH". So the actual name of Zamora could have a germanic or arab origin.

The city was reconquisted by the christians, in the 9th century. The king of Asturias (north of Spain) ALFONSO III who was born in Zamora and loved the city, made of it a giant fortress so it would not be invaded again.






The king of Castilla -(most important kingdom in medieval Spain)- FERNANDO I, called Zamora "The great stronghold".



He rebuilded it, reforced it and gave it to his daughter, "DOÑA URRACA". She became the RULER of ZAMORA.

Notice the lion standards.




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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 23 Feb - 2:35

More images of the real ZAMORA -(Spain)-

































SEMANA SANTA ("Holy Week") processions in ZAMORA.
















I wonder if Milius was not influenced by these so common spanish religious shows, to film the last scene of the "Orphans of Doom". It's very probable he, or his team, watched one of these in SEGOVIA, AVILA or CUENCA.



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 23 Feb - 4:18

ZAMORA in the Milius' movie is actually ALMERIA, a province that is pretty far away from the real ZAMORA of SPAIN.


In fact, the rest of locations of the movie are more related to the real ZAMORA than ALMERIA.





For example:


1. - SEGOVIA:

A place ver near ZAMORA, it shares the same arid landscapes but also has forest like the one that served as CIMMERIA in the film. Like in ZAMORA, the city of SEGOVIA has a very strong medieval flavour.























There is also a famous aqueduct from ancient roman times.



The "dead woman" mountain.





2. - AVILA:

Also pretty close to ZAMORA, the capital of the province has again medieval "castellano" flavour, with narrow streets like SEGOVIA and ZAMORA made up of stone.

The most important thing in AVILA are its amazing medieval defensive walls. You will find these defensive walls are pretty close to the ones of the real spanish ZAMORA, and also pretty similar to the ones that the Milius' movie Zamora had, in the builded city of "El Condor" in the desert of Almeria. The defensive walls of AVILA were used in some movies like Verhoeven's "Flesh and Blood", for example.




















In AVILA the celtic indigenous tribe were the VETTONES. They also worshipped BULLS and PIGS.











AVILA was used as VANAHEIM, a place that Milius wanted to look like Afghanistan or Russia.
















Comparison of AVILA with AFGHANISTAN LANDSCAPES:




Comparison of AVILA with RUSSIAN landscapes:









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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 23 Feb - 5:14

3. - CUENCA

Now CUENCA is really an magic place. No wonder why they chosed as the forest of the Wolf-Witch. One can imagine that anything can happen here. It was filmed in a place called "CIUDAD ENCANTADA", which means "Enchanted City".



































A strange curiosity: in the mountains of CUENCA, there is an ancient cave called "LA CUEVA DE LA RAMERA", that means THE CAVE OF THE WHORE.

Maybe a Wolf-Whore? pig






Also in this province of CUENCA there was Segobriga, ancient Roman city.












This is the land of Don Quixote.







Again we find medieval streets and buildings, with typical "catellano" style.














Specially beautiful are the "Hanging Houses".






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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sat 23 Feb - 7:28

Now, we will examine the place of the hyborian ZAMORA, in the Miliu's movie.




This is ALMERIA, in the south of Spain. (Where the hyborian ZAMORA of the movie was placed). It is essentially an arab medieval city. The style of the fortress and defensive walls is a little different from the ones of Castilla, that were christian -romanic-.

The landscapes are also different. There is no green here, at all. Sunny desertic areas, yellow and brown. The south of Spain is really hot. (Very rarely it snows).





A very concrete relation with the Milius' movie, and a proof that the artistic minds took "in situ" ideas for the film: Wall paintings in a cave, 5.ooo years old. Here we find the INDALO, the symbol that the Wizard (Mako) painted in Conan's face to protect him from the evil spirits who come to take his soul.






Axes and Spearheads from the Bronze Age founded in ALMERIA.






In 955 the first Caliph of Al-Andalus, Adb Al Rahman III established Almeria as an important port for trade throughout the Mediterranean. He authorised the building of the Alcazaba and the castle on a hill overlooking the bay of Almeria.



Although today the Alcazaba is principally an area of gardens with fabulous views overlooking the sea and the mountains, it was originally capable of containing and supporting a population of up to 20,000 people within its walls. These perimeter walls extend to a total of 1430 metres, making Almeria the second largest Moorish fortification in Spain after the Alhambra in Granada.

At one end of the Alcazaba is the (relatively) more recent castle, built after the Christian reconquest. The simple strong lines of the castle are set off by elegant touches of Mudejar embellishment. The word "Mudejar" denotes the style of architecture which was adopted in much of southern Spain as the formerly Moorish stonemasons and craftsmen continued their work under the influence of their new Christian masters. It is a style that leaves traces even in many modern buildings in Andalucia today.





















Islamic lion used in a fountain, from Almeria -(medieval times).




ALMERIA typical dress from 19th century. -notice the arab style-.





Now let's see the movie ZAMORA. There is some touches of arabic style here and there, in the defensive walls, reminiscent of the ones from ALMERIA.











The defensive walls also reminds the romanic walls of AVILA and ZAMORA, but meanwhile those had round towers, the arabic ones from ALMERIA are rectangular the same as these.

(Here's a reminder new look to the ALMERIA walls and rectangular towers):





The interior of the city of the movie looks also medieval Islamic.




Though, originaly the city was not moorish.

This is a concept drawing by RON COBB for this city, the capital of ZAMORA -supposedly Shadizar-.



Here the defensive walls are not moorish as they ended being. They are not medieval christian, either. They more look like roman, all these typical roofs.



Roman city with defensive wall.



This other concept drawing shows a cultural mixed city. There are mongolian yurts, also egiptian temples, and the typical christian medieval castle in the top of the mountain -also notice the watermill-.



This is an ancient spanish watermill, roman-islamic origin.




In the end, the apparence in the movie doesn't show this cultural mixed city, but one much more islamic like the Al-andalusi Almeria. -(Though supposedly still existed Mongolian Yurts, as we see in the Love Scene with Conan and Valeria).

This market place is for sure inspired by the moorish ZOCO, or SUQ. In the medieval islamic ALMERIA, the Zoco was were traders and craftsmen opened their shops on the street, and offered to their customers, products made by themselves, or brought from around the world.



ZOCO in Granada -(Spain):



This next photo probably belongs to the ALCAICERÍA or QAYSARIYYA, a street inside of the Zoco were the most valuable products were sold. Gold, jewelry, brocades, silks and some other luxury goods.



The habitants of the city also look moorish. They don't look gypsi. They neither look like northmen.



(The fact is that they look SPANISH, because is what they actually are) Razz

But just looking at the dresses, they look more african than mediterranean. Absolutely non medieval christian.



There are even some black african habitants.



In fact this city looks like a fenician harbour for commerce. (Look at the amphoras)



Fenician amphoras, founded in Spain:





The indigenous of Spain used to have a very important commercial relation with fenicians. These are Celtiberians trading with Fenicians.




The fact is that hyborain ZAMORA doesn't have the sea near it. But in the reality, ZAMORA is spanish ALMERIA and the same beach Conan rides through is in the same province the city of the King Osric is.



If John Milius ignored the map of Howard -thing he could have done perfectly-, then ALMERIA was a important port for Fenician and Canthaginians merchants, who traded with the celtiberians.



Probably John milius was more interested in being inspired by the rreal historic past of the places he visited, than being faithful to Howard. Some would say the movie sucks by that reason. I just don't agree with them.



The palace of the king Osric doesn't look like medieval christian at all. Is not islamic, either. It's more like a nordic-germanic hut evolved into a castle.

(The interior is clearly nordic, and also the apparence of the King himself. King Osric is an usurper, so he wasn't born in ALMERIA).



But we can find another viking culture touch in the seminal concept of the city, in the runical designs of the tavern including a drakkar (dragon) head. (Actually a dinosaur).





Ron Cobb's early version of the Tower of the Serpent.

Now this is strange, some kind of gothic/art-nouveau style.



The marvel version of a city of ZAMORA.

It has some kind of Indian-arabesque style.



Finally, the Tower of the Serpent in the movie version. A more asiatic-arabesque style that fits better with the style of ALMERIA.



Islamic garden and tower in the Alhambra - (Granada, Spain).



Islamic gardens in ALMERIA.



The garden of the Tower of the Serpent reminds me a lot the Taj-Mahal. (Indian-Islamic).






Ron Cobb's version of the streets of the ZAMORIAN city.

It still has that same undefined and surreal ambient.



Marvel version. Now here we have a very clear European medieval streets.



Closer to Marvel comics version than to Cobb's, the streets in the movie.





Movie version of a ZAMORIAN tavern.



Marvel version.




Finally, this is supposedly the same ZAMORIAN city than in the Milius' movie. Shadizar.

The city was designed by WILLIAM STOUT... Why is it now in the top of a mexican hill?

Who cares. We all know the main character is not even the same one than in CTB, so... Who cares. Razz

Another interesting thing is that the maquette was built by Emilio Ruiz del Rio, same one who worked in the Milius' movie.





Another version of Shadizar, now in the "Horn of Azoth" comic, adaptation of the first rejected script of Roy Thomas. Again, the city is more Islamic than European.



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 20 Mar - 22:38

As nobody is posting things in this great thread anymore, i hope you guys didn't get bored with my last massive spanish works. I hope this thread could continue some day, I have some stuff in some part of my computer waiting for some free time.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 20 Mar - 23:29

The look of the cities as well as characters is more Medieval Moorish in nature than Phoenicians. Same problem with the movie GLADIATOR, they made North Africa into arabic/islamic dominated Middle Ages look. The Punics and Romanized Berbers would not of looked like that during the Roman period. Hollywood also neglects to paint any of the temples and cities, they were very colorful and exuberant in appearance. They often like making Rome and Egypt look like desert wastland relics, so dry and plain, its disgusting to see all the time. Phoenicians themselves wouldve looked no different from the Greeks or Philistines, whom they were connected and partially related too. Phoenician's only come onto the seen after they meet the Mycenaeans on Cyrus.

Osric's castle, was modeled on one of them Viking longhouses, with a bit of artistic license.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 20 Mar - 23:59

Thulsa Doom's stuff also resembles the Kremlin:





Byzantine Church of Hagia Sopia since converted by Islam:


Before


After

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Mon 12 May - 23:34

Here's a nice Italic Ligurian warrior recon drawing I recently came across:



http://www.archaeology-images.com/photo-galleries/exhibits/Ligurians/index.html
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 22 May - 13:49

Prehistoric Mongolia:

A 20.000 years old tomb



A stone sculpture picture in which ancient animals in the Stone Age were drawn




The remains of the ancient Turkish people



The bases of the old capital, KARKORIN





Karkorin, the capital of the old Mongolian empire







Likiang market square - (China)-





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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 5 Jun - 3:33

(William Stout draw dinosaurs in the concept art)-:

From the Witch's hut -(a dimetrodon and a ceratopsian skull):





Some pterodactyls:



Comparison with some other pterodactyls from Stout:



A carnosaur motif from the tavern:



Comparison with some other carnosaur from Stout:



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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 12 Jun - 3:49

Archaeologists search for evidence of Cimmerian settlement, homeland of Conan the Barbarian

Monday, July 31, 2006


Archaeologists say the ancient city of Antandros holds the potential of becoming the 'Ephesus of the future' particularly due to its architectural features

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News

A team of archaeologists conducting excavations in the ancient city of Antandros in Balıkesir is chasing the traces of the Cimmerians tribe -- the tribe of the fictional character Conan the Barbarian (also known as Conan the Cimmerian) -- who are thought to have lived in the ancient city for about 100 years.

Associate Professor Gürcan Polat, a lecturer with Ege University and the head of the Antandros excavations, told the Doğan News Agency that they were trying to find evidence of the Cimmerian settlement, the name of which is mentioned in the works of Stefanos Bizantios, a late Roman author.

Polat said evidence found so far showed that the Cimmerians didn't settle in a certain place, adding: “According to Bizantios' works, the tribe lived in Antandros for about 100 years. Yet, this assertion hasn't been proved so far. We want to find evidence of the Cimmerian settlement in our excavations.”



Archaeologists say the ancient city of Antandros holds the potential to become the “Ephesus of the future,” particularly due to its architectural features.

Polat said the excavations, which are in their seventh season this year, are continuing at three sites in the ancient city. He added that as yet they have not been able to unveil Roman period official buildings and structures.

“The excavations could gain momentum if more sponsors are found. This year we focused on the restoration of the mosaics and frescos belonging to a previously unearthed Roman villa. Our digs are unveiling the villa's eight rooms that were decorated with mosaics and frescos, as well as its hamam [bath] and toilet area. Our findings indicate that the villa was divided into rooms with walls and was used as a home by more than one family due to economic reasons.

“The excavations at the Antandros necropolis, which was used as a cemetery between the seventh and first centuries B.C., indicated that adults were cremated and then interred, whereas children under the age of six were not cremated but simply buried. Traces of a thick layer of carbon belonging to the first part of the sixth century B.C. found at the third excavation site, on the other hand, may be traces of a battle that erased the Kimmers from the pages of history at the hands of the Lydians,” he said.



Noting that the sewer system of the villa was constructed in a very skillful way, Polat said: “The toilet was constructed over the main sewer system, which was laid down along the hillside, suggesting that a number of houses were built at the site. We therefore assume that a big civilization lived in this area.”

He also said the work on restoring the mosaics and the Roman period villas -- which were unearthed last year -- will last until Sept. 15 and are being conducted by a team of 27 staff led by Professor Sait Başaran from Istanbul University.

“We anticipate that very valuable artifacts will be unveiled at the excavations at the Antandros necropolis,” he added.

The Cimmerians were a warring and nomadic tribe that inhabited the region north of the Caucasus and the Black Sea, in what is now Russia and Ukraine, in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. The Cimmerians were the tribe of famous fictional barbarian character Conan the Barbarian, played by actor Arnold Schwarzenegger in his films.

They are believed to have lived in Antandros for about 100 years until the Lydians chased them out.

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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 12 Jun - 5:28

VIDEOS:


1- Carn Goch - Iron Age fort

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTpBWxD2I0&feature=related


2- Iron age Celtic blacksmith demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anDCaVbna6U&feature=related


3- The Bronze Age in Denmark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MW70o80obk&feature=related


4- The Iron Age in Denmark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htor3Q0zKPs&feature=related


5- Iron Age house

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWKVZP7PS2c&feature=related


6- The ancient Germans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttRcqqCLH7s&feature=related


7- Iron Age fort and tomb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6L-sRyd1z4&feature=related


8- Ancient warriors: the Huns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n35q-rM6nLU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyYNJfwXuVc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HZc90ZZcGg&feature=related


9- Iron Age life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9EKgQHA5I&amp;feature=related


10- A historical workshop near by the Danish town of Odense.... It shows how the predestors of vikings lived 2 thousand years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w9BPF4pM4A&amp;feature=related


11- Ancient warriors: the Vikings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um7pP14mNLI&feature=related


12- Barbarians: the Vikings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgFdvwIh1xo&feature=related
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 12 Jun - 8:57

Snake Cults Dominated Early Arabia

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News
May 17, 2007

Pre-Islamic Middle Eastern regions were home to mysterious snake cults, according to two papers published in this month's Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy journal.

From at least 1250 B.C. until around 550 A.D., residents of what is now the Persian Gulf worshipped snakes in elaborate temple complexes that appear to have been built for this purpose, the studies reveal.

The first paper, by archaeologist Dan Potts of the University of Sydney, describes architecture and relics dating to 500 B.C. from Qalat al-Bahrain in Bahrain.



"Hostile Spirit"
This photo shows a closeup of a 3rd century A.D. relief from Iran. The "hostile spirit" Ahriman is depicted as having a crown in the shape of a snake.


Two rooms in what is now known as the Late Dilmun Palace each contain 39 pits, some of which surround what appears to have been an altar. At least 32 of the pits housed ceramic vessels containing bones from rat snakes and sea snakes.

The remains showed no signs of mutilation.

"They were in cloth bags, now badly decomposed, and that might suggest that they had been buried alive, i.e. put into a bag, placed in a bowl, and then buried in the ground," Potts told Discovery News.

Some bowls found at the site have been identified as "wine-drinking" cups. Potts, however, does not necessarily think that wine consumption accompanied the snake rituals, which he speculates were meant to confer protection and good luck.

He described pottery decorated with snakes, snake artwork and even ancient oral traditions, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, which originated at early Arabic sites and paid homage to snakes.

In the second paper, archaeologist Anne Benoist of the Eastern Archaeology Laboratory at the National Center for Scientific Research in France describes yet another Iron Age temple complex linked to snake cults.

Excavation of the site, at Al Bithnah in the United Arab Emirates, revealed both indoor and open-air altars, chapel-like structures, incense burners, man-made pools of water and numerous vessels and objects decorated with snakes.

Most of the snakes were depicted with triangular heads and scales, which Benoist said suggests "a viper species, which is striking, as they are venomous and therefore dangerous."

Benoist said early Middle Eastern traditions held that snake venom was viewed as "a source of power over life." Snakes are prevalent in Persian Gulf regions.

She pointed out that the association of snakes with power over life even carried over into the Old Testament. One passage describes Moses placing a bronze snake on a pole so that anyone who had been bitten by a snake would be healed upon seeing it.

The seasonal shedding of skin linked the reptile to cycles of death and rebirth, so snakes were probably also connected to fertility.

Potts thinks snake worship originated in India and spread throughout the Middle East. There is evidence for extensive trade and travel between the two areas.

As for the fate of snake cults, Benoist said later religions likely deemed them "superstitious," causing followers to practice snake veneration in secret. Eventually, she said, the cults were "overtaken by the official monotheist religion."
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Thu 12 Jun - 20:55

Chinese Mummies, Caucasoids found in the Tarim Basin

Quote :
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com

Some mummies were found in MONGOLIA, whom were actually European and not Mongoloid. The Caucasoid Tarim mummies have been dated as being as much as 4,000 years old.



The mummies were corpses that had been preserved by the dry air in the Tarim Basin. Even elaborate tattoos on their faces and hands could still be seen. Evidence such as clothing material resembling Scottish tweed suggest that they came from Europe, but Mair's current hypothesis is that they migrated from south-central Siberia (the Altai-Yenisei area, just north of the Tarim Basin), and were peripheral members of the Indo-European Tocharian language group. This means that in prehistoric times there was already extensive contact between Caucasoids and Mongoloids in the Tarim region.



Those European people were called the TOCHARIANS, the Taklamakan desert in the Tarim Basin was the route of the ancient Silk Road.



Tocharian Knights.


The Taklamakan Mummies (Tocharian mummies)

In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Taklamakan desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people. Archaeologists now think they may have been the citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.



Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story.”

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old ”Beauty of Loulan” and the younger 3,000-year-old body of the ”Charchan Man” are legendary in world archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research. In the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin.




Meanwhile, Yingpan Man, a nearly perfectly preserved 2,000-year-old Caucasoid mummy, discovered in 1995 in the region that bears his name, has been seen as the best preserved of all the undisturbed mummies that have so far been found.

Yingpan Man not only had a gold foil death mask -- a Greek tradition -- covering his blonde bearded face, but also wore elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.

His nearly 2.00 meter (six-foot, six-inch) long body is the tallest of all the mummies found so far and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region.



So, we have the 2 meter mummy of a Caucasoid giant in the barbarian lands of Mongolia... Doesn't it sound familiar? We mut remember the armory of the Atlantean king is ancient Chinese in style.






One of the most famous Tocharian mummies found, the so-called "Beauty of Loulan"; and right, her face as reconstructed by an artist.



“Beauty of Loulan” The oldest mummies found in the Tarim Basin come from Loulan located at the east end of the egg shaped Taklamakan Desert. Dressed only in shades of brown, she was alive as early as 2000 B.C. during the era of Abraham and the patriarchs. She died when she was about 40. Next to her head there is a basket which contains grains of wheat.
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Sun 15 Jun - 19:53

The Tarim basin mummies have East Asian genetic affinities and look Caucasoid and Mongoloid admixtured not so different from one of former Russian controled "Stans", like ex. Turkmenistan or such. That area is still has Caucasoid remnants and Afghanistan's and India isnt to far away either.

I dont want to stray to far from the CONAN movie though and get bogged down in Race or Dinosaurs so much here, so lets keep it more on point and focus on the MOVIE itself.

I dont have a good picture of movie Toth-Amon and my scanner isnt hooked up at the moment, but i know he wears the breastplate with the Eagle or Falcon(Horus?) holding the Eye, and theres eye lashes, and below the eye there is symbolism of light or energy rays shooting out from the Eye. However they didnt add a eye-ball/pupil for some lowbudget reason. But thats probably the only connection to Set and Thulsa Doom, and maybe his ability to turn into Reptilian creature.

Pat Roach as the Wizard was a bad choice, he looked like shit and didnt carry the part well, though he didnt have much a part besides. Christopher Lee wouldve been great there for a brief role. But I imagine, DUNE took up most of their money and effort, that movie had a stellar cast.

PS

The Hyboria Age, looked plucked from the idea of Pangaea, the supercontenetent of 225 million years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaea
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PostSubject: Re: Historical Art and Symbolism inspiration in CONAN   Fri 27 Jun - 19:48

I think the story of real historical barbarians is pretty close to the movie spirit, I agree we must relate the info as much as we can, but I think I allways try to do that as much as posible batman


I know that maybe I went away too far from the movie with the last dinosaurs post, but as I was searching for Bill Stout's artwork and found the guy so much into these creatures, I thought It would fit somehow in the movie's world, as he included some dinos in the storyboards and also you said the early scripts included them somewhere.

All these dinosaurs are from ancient Mongolia.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote :
Your comment about "designing things backwards in time" makes me think about the original opening of the movie, that was showing a map of our world turning into a map of the Hyborian Age. I know for a fact that this was already in the Oliver Stone's draft; I think Milius liked the idea, because he used it too in his own screenplay, and you even boarded that sequence. But I was wondering... Was such an opening ever actually filmed?

- As far as I know, it wasn't. But I'm not the guy to ask because I left before filming to finish my dinosaur book.

- Was it, at least, planned to be filmed?

- I think it was originally planned to be filmed — otherwise I wouldn't have boarded it.

- I mean, did you create practical prop maps in order to be used in such a scene? Like the ones we see in the background of the War-Yurt tent scene, for example...

- Other than what I drew in my storyboards, I never created a prop map.


Hyboria map -(made by someone called Chrysagon...):



Maps of PANGEA:




Also, CIMMERIA was a microcontinent in the TRIASSIC era. -Again we have dinosaurs in Conan's land, here Mr. Green )-.



Quote :
Cimmeria was an ancient microcontinent that existed about 200 million years ago. It rifted north from Gondwana during the Late Carboniferous and collided against eastern Laurasia (the Siberian continent) during the Late Triassic together with the Chinese continents. The collision created new mountain ranges between Siberia and Cimmeria. Cimmeria consisted parts of Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Tibet, Indochina and Malaya. Cimmeria was on the Cimmerian Plate, an ancient tectonic plate that was subducting under Laurasia.
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